OUO or PMF for traction bars???

[Str8Ugly]

can u post a pic of your truck throttle, you truck sounds identical to mine

 

[throttlejocky316]

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[/URL]

 

[Layson]

There's gonna be similarities between most products but to say one is an outright copy is a little much IMHO.
In that case everyone copied the first person to build a 4 link, etc.

Here is the difference. You go to OUO's website and everything on there is pretty much unique and their own idea and in some cases even patented.

You go to the other website and 95% of the stuff on there is “similar” to something else out there on the market. Whatever you want....dynatrac...icon....fabtech....attitude performance...kelderman... You could call them and I bet you could get something built that looked like anything out there in the suspension world since it is a steel fabrication shop. Call up OUO and tell them that you want something that looks like a Rize Kit or a Kelderman kit and find out how they respond to that? See if OUO sells you their own transfer case clocking ring or Attitude Performances clocking ring since Attitude is the one that originally came up with it. Or Dynatrac Balljoints or Wheel-bearings, cause I bet if they wanted too, they could easily take them apart like everyone else and build their own and make a few bucks on it. But that isn’t the company that they are.


It is like some of the sponsors/big diesel shops on this site. They spend the money and effort to come up with some great idea for our trucks. They trouble shoot, test it, come up with a kit, and price it accordingly so they can continue to survive as a business. Then a company like Sinister takes it and makes a ****ty copy of it. They don't necessarily know exactly what the kit does but they know people will buy it. Then people that didn't want to pay for the original kits now are buying the cheaper version. They claim it is the same product that you get from the others. When in fact it isn't. The details are not in this kit, not all the proper parts, it may not come with instructions, or it may not be packaged very well, and overall it may not even function the same. But you saved a few bucks... and really you may not expect it to be perfect and it also may do exactly what you want it to do.


Then you add the Forum aspect on this entire deal. Say Sinister ends up being a sponsor and then gives some of the forum owners/moderators all free or heavily discounted product for their forum fee. So people see that the moderators and owners are putting these parts on their trucks. The members trust that it is a good part since we all are "friends" on here, and buy it. Time goes by and new people and nobody knows the history or frankly probably don’t care either, now are buying and supporting the product and thinking they are getting the same thing for a lot less.

Knowing what I know now and watching the diesel industry grow over the last 10-15 years. There are some really cool, smart, and fun people out there that do some really cool stuff in this industry. These people put hundreds/thousands of hours into a really cool product and have a huge sense of pride and ownership of their product. Then it gets copied and its ok…..and you hear the same thing…. it is a little different…it isn’t the exact same…there is only so many ways to do it…LOL… They are all the ones that run the product and give feedback by telling everyone that you are getting the same thing but it is cheaper.

It is no different than going to SEMA and seeing the coilovers/shocks that are pretty blue that look exactly like King shocks and a bunch of Asian people sleeping in the booth. You can wake them up and talk to them about their product and they don’t even understand what they make. But they can make it though and people will buy it because it is pretty blue and it is a 1/3rd the price.

 

[Layson]

There's gonna be similarities between most products but to say one is an outright copy is a little much IMHO.
In that case everyone copied the first person to build a 4 link, etc.

As everyone seems to be aware the PMF vs OUO thing has been going on for the last 5 or so years. OUO’s product is so unique and so much different than anything out there. So it is hard for me to grasp that concept of that it is so much different. There was a time when OUO was the only outfit with a traction block setup, heck they even spent the money to patent it because nobody even did this or even thought of it or frankly even cared because everyone had their version/idea of what they thought worked. Then all of a sudden PMF comes out with a traction block setup. People called him out for it and everyone said the same crap that I wrote above. …. it is a little different…it isn’t the exact same…there is only so many ways to do it…LOL… They only had one style, the ladder style (fabtech) with a shackle that has a block setup. Now a little time goes by and another setup shows up and slowly evolved into what you see above which is an all bolt on mount single bar, with an option to have a small gussets on it. From a distance it looks just like an OUO setup, I have trouble telling the difference. Heck it even has a small round logo in the middle just like OUO’s. Look at that pictures of the truck above. You are telling me that doesn’t look the same from a distance? Then I remember the original blocks were not adjustable to move the axle forward or back. Now look at the blocks shown in the above picture and they are adjustable just like OUO’s.



Remember when PMF’s website had a truck with a set of OUO bars right on the front page of the website?



Then all of a sudden PMF adjustable link arms came out and even called them ALA’s…LOL, which was unusual to me since everything I saw from him was 4-link…4-link…4-link was the way to go. Nobody else made adjustable link arms or even really cared since everybody was into 4-links. Heck from day one OUO’s put ALA’s on leaf sprung trucks in the early 2000’s, so it was an easy transition to the 05+ superduties. PMF’s setup now has gone through several versions already in their short time frame. To where now they are almost exactly the same, they are even offset, the only difference is the quality of joints. Even one guy told me he went into their fabrication shop and a set of OUO ALA’s were sitting on one of their benches. Funny thing about this deal is one week he is arguing that 4-link is the way to go and the next week he is selling a 3-link.



Somewhere in this time frame PMF releases its adjustable driveline drop. Which the ONLY outfit out there that makes one of these is OUO. It is a patented product, very unique to the industry. Nobody cares that it is patented, only the guy who spent the 5-10k to get it done. I wonder how many of the 175$ kits they would have to sell to make that up?



Then we start getting closer to SEMA 2011. I remember Keg Media putting together a rendering for a truck that was obviously an OUO kit in the rendering but had PMF logos all over it (I guess the kids parents couldn’t afford an OUO kit and so Keg media left the rendering with the OUO stuff on it and didn’t bother to change it to the PMF stuff but they did remove the OUO logo and put a PMF one in its place). Then PMF builds the truck and it totally resembles the OUO 575 series kit that was debuted at SEMA in 2009. Yes it was different, yes people have built trophy style rear setups like this before, yes it was slightly different. But it was way to similar and too much of a coincidence.



Then 2013 rolls around and another version of the 575 series comes out. This one with a full cradle and a slightly beefier setup then the previous one. Yes it is different, yes it isn’t exactly the same, and yes there are only so many ways to do it.



Then the funniest thing that I am sure some of you noticed on facebook. The shocktowers that OUO has been working on for years to have a perfect kit for you guys looks to have been leaked by someone whom I think may be on this site. For some random reason PMF releases their version of the shocktowers a week or two ago….LOL



I just can’t support someone that essentially makes a living out of making their versions of everyone elses parts. I know the people behind some of these parts and ideas that work really hard for you guys to come up with the absolutely the best thing for you. Tons of pride and ownership of their parts and ideas. Wouldn’t you like to see or hear about the different projects they are working on? Don’t you want them to continue to make stuff for our trucks? They are great smart people and every time you buy a knockoff part you are supporting this type of behavior.

 

[TripleE44]

U mad bro?

 

[NotStock]

Jesus christ. There is so much utter bull$hit, lies and fabricated crap in your post, I dont have the time to respond to every incorrect point.

Never was there a truck with OUO bars on the cover of our website.

Never did we call our 3-link arms ALA's nor did I EVER say 4-link was the only way to go. In fact I have been THE ONLY person to say both have advantages and disadvantages when compared with the other rather than sell the customer the only thing I offer. Whoever said they walked into my shop and saw a set of OUO ANYTHING is a ***ing liar. The first time and THE ONLY time an OUO product has ever been in my shop was from a customer of Full Flex's that OUO told to "f*ck off" after he called them asking for replacement joints and OUO quoted him $3k something for replacements. Zach brought them out with him when he came to my wedding last year so I could try and find some replacements for the guy. He end up getting pissed and ripped all your precious OUO parts off his truck because you couldnt support the customer after the sale. At that point our link arms had been out for over a year.

Our adjustable carrier bearing drop accomplishes the same adjust-ability in a different fashion than OUO's.

What control do I have over what KEG Media renders? They didnt contact me nor do I even know what customer your even talking about.

Someone at OUO leaked a picture of some replacement coil buckets and we copied it? Are you kidding me? We designed and shipped the first set of those 2 months ago and I didnt know anything about the OUO one until a friend send me a link to OUO releasing theirs. Ours is a modified version of our larger heavier duty coilover buckets that we made 4 years ago. Technically the first to release a coil specific OEM configured bucket was Carli. So by your reasoning OUO and us must have copied them, right?

Your an idiot and the way you rep your brand is pathetic. Call it how it is, you and OUO dont like competition amongst the market. Good luck with that. Im here and Im not going anywhere.

 

[packin45]

Here is the difference. You go to OUO's website and everything on there is pretty much unique and their own idea and in some cases even patented.



You go to the other website and 95% of the stuff on there is “similar” to something else out there on the market. Whatever you want....dynatrac...icon....fabtech....attitude performance...kelderman... You could call them and I bet you could get something built that looked like anything out there in the suspension world since it is a steel fabrication shop. Call up OUO and tell them that you want something that looks like a Rize Kit or a Kelderman kit and find out how they respond to that? See if OUO sells you their own transfer case clocking ring or Attitude Performances clocking ring since Attitude is the one that originally came up with it. Or Dynatrac Balljoints or Wheel-bearings, cause I bet if they wanted too, they could easily take them apart like everyone else and build their own and make a few bucks on it. But that isn’t the company that they are.





It is like some of the sponsors/big diesel shops on this site. They spend the money and effort to come up with some great idea for our trucks. They trouble shoot, test it, come up with a kit, and price it accordingly so they can continue to survive as a business. Then a company like Sinister takes it and makes a ****ty copy of it. They don't necessarily know exactly what the kit does but they know people will buy it. Then people that didn't want to pay for the original kits now are buying the cheaper version. They claim it is the same product that you get from the others. When in fact it isn't. The details are not in this kit, not all the proper parts, it may not come with instructions, or it may not be packaged very well, and overall it may not even function the same. But you saved a few bucks... and really you may not expect it to be perfect and it also may do exactly what you want it to do.





Then you add the Forum aspect on this entire deal. Say Sinister ends up being a sponsor and then gives some of the forum owners/moderators all free or heavily discounted product for their forum fee. So people see that the moderators and owners are putting these parts on their trucks. The members trust that it is a good part since we all are "friends" on here, and buy it. Time goes by and new people and nobody knows the history or frankly probably don’t care either, now are buying and supporting the product and thinking they are getting the same thing for a lot less.



Knowing what I know now and watching the diesel industry grow over the last 10-15 years. There are some really cool, smart, and fun people out there that do some really cool stuff in this industry. These people put hundreds/thousands of hours into a really cool product and have a huge sense of pride and ownership of their product. Then it gets copied and its ok…..and you hear the same thing…. it is a little different…it isn’t the exact same…there is only so many ways to do it…LOL… They are all the ones that run the product and give feedback by telling everyone that you are getting the same thing but it is cheaper.



It is no different than going to SEMA and seeing the coilovers/shocks that are pretty blue that look exactly like King shocks and a bunch of Asian people sleeping in the booth. You can wake them up and talk to them about their product and they don’t even understand what they make. But they can make it though and people will buy it because it is pretty blue and it is a 1/3rd the price.

Go deliver this same rant at Burger King about there "Big King"being a copy of a Big Mac. Bet no one would care there either


Sent from my iPhone

 

[UNBROKEN]

Lotta butthurt over some suspension parts. I stand behind my post...you can post all the diatribes you like, you won't change my stance.

 

[Cheap6.7]

Do both bars flex the same because that's a big deal to me, I can't have any binding.

 

[jordan572]

Pretty sad everyone has to be at each other. I'm not stating any facts nor do I care to argue. However I think the truck I brought to sema last year is a great example of what PMF can produce. I've seen every picture through every design phase. The suspensions angles, cycling programs, cut sheets and on and on I could go. There is more design hours in that lift (completely redesigned from the sema 2013 build) then there is build and install time. The shocks alone nearly ran us both into the ground trying to pull those off, which we did.

It seems like a one way argument constantly from the same people representing the same party. I prefer to just enjoy modifying vehicles regardless who's product I run. I'm not in it to one up the next guy or take sides with people. It's just a hobby.

 

[Breaking Habits]

The story with full flex did not go down that way, but what would me sharing the truth accomplish? Nothing. There will be some sorry excuse how I'm lying.

I could point out a picture the first 3 link on jesses truck that wouldn't even drive down the road and show multiple changes over the past couple years that get more or more similar.. There's only so many ways to skin a cat? I guess Dave did it right the first time.

It's the same bull****, we're all just nutswingers, even though any customer who calls me asking the difference between OUO and PMF product can tell you I won't trash Trevor. I just say the words "I don't feel it's the same caliber of product, and I wouldn't run it on my own vehicle, therefor I won't sell it, and can't comment on it". I've had people try to phish and make me trash him. I don't say ****.

Who jumped whose ass in the caltracs deal? Surely it was an OUO fanboy. No, it was me getting jumped. It's the same bull****. If any of us make a single ****ing solid point there's always some douchebag making a childish comment like, nutswingers, why u mad, or accusing me of attacking someone. I'm over it. It's a god damned double standard.

Quit lying about ****, run your business, how ever you wanna do it. But if you are going to lie about Dave or myself, expect us "fanboys" to chime in.

Then again, maybe you should call Eric Ramsey and ask him how the deal with full flex went down. Since you are so keen to it.

FYI, this is also why no PMF dealers can sell OUO product. I'm not dealing with the constant, you can buy this or you can buy this cheaper from us too ****. The only argument I ever see about our product is that it costs too much. That'll end that. I'm not arguing over this same bull**** anymore: it's not going to change. I'm ok with being a dickhead: all my customers who've bought OUO from me have been happy, and I've never used the competition as leverage to make the sale.
Goodnight

 

[josh@thedieselcartel]

I have a totally different outlook on this subject than most would because I have used, bought, and sold both brands products.

Ive enjoyed both brands, and i think both brands have great things to offer, and I wouldn't turn any of my customers away from either brand, instead i would inform them with the facts that I know, find out what is going to be the best product for their timeframe, budget, use, and desired outcome, and then finalize the sale.

With that said, I am now banished from selling or dealing with any OUO products because I also sell PMF products. I bet if I call AFE and tell them that I also sell S&B intakes they won't take my dealer rights away. This is just bad biz from my side of the table.

All the hand me down stories of he did this or they did that have been beyond embellished and i don't think anyone besides the founders of OUO and PMF know the real truth. Both companies make good products. Neither company invented the traction bar, the 4 link, the 3 link, or any other suspension product. They may have developed the first on the market that is super duty specific but i bet if we all look back we can find an aftermarket 3 link style front suspension part made for another vehicle, we can find a traction bar from a multitude of vehicles, clearly the 4 link has been available for decades, etc.

Again, both companies make a nice product. Whatever way any potential customers goes I'm sure they will be happy with their purchase.

 

[NotStock]

My entrance into this thread and statement to you Jared was based off your crack that I took as being oriented at us. As I said moments after you responded, I apologize for being defensive and misinterpreting your post. It was left at that. This thread didnt turn ugly until there was paragraph after paragraph of nothing but lies. I stay out of all of the drama that gets started until I have to correct blatant lies. Thats where I draw the line. My shop and my business are an open book. You want to come down and walk through it, I welcome you or anyone else. I work hands on with my customers and dealers. I support them and give advice without ever bad mouthing anyone and let them (or their customer) make the choice on who to do business with. If they choose to go a different route for a build/customer, Im still there to help them with the next one. You are 100% correct though, the way you/OUO do business is VERY different than I. In what way, I welcome the customers to decide for themselves.

 

[UNBROKEN]

With that said, I am now banished from selling or dealing with any OUO products because I also sell PMF products.

Seems quite childish of OUO to have a policy like that. Not that I care I guess...PMF is getting my business.

 

[Breaking Habits]

Seems quite childish of OUO to have a policy like that. Not that I care I guess...PMF is getting my business.

Actually Rich it isn't. Its a non stop barrage of "such and such bashed PMF" to the OUO guys. You can call one place and buy OUO, or you can call someone else and buy PMF.

If you'd been dealing wtih this crap as long as I have, you'd see its a huge step towards individualizing the brands. People claim they are similar, some people claim they are completely different. And then some people claim its merely budget oriented, or what someone can afford is the big sale point. After a few customers made calls and said, "well Person x claims this is the exact same thing but only for less", Dave and I made the decision to keep them completely separate.

People on the outside probably won't understand this, but they don't deal with the constant de moralization that we've had. Even speaking up about why something works better, and all the sudden someone says, "why you mad" or "nutswinger". Note, this can be a completely on topic engineering post, but the attack starts.

From today forward, you can buy OUO from an Authorized Distributor such as myself, or one of the other fine dealers on here. You can buy PMF from one of Trevors distributors. But, you cannot buy them from the same place. The line has been drawn, and it is not going to move. Im sick of the BS, this is how it has to be.

 

[UNBROKEN]

Y'all know I'm not mad at anyone....but to the public at large it appears childish. Do as you wish...I'm just sayin'....

 

[Cheap6.7]

Do both bars flex the same because that's a big deal to me, I can't have any binding.

Yeah so....

 

[Breaking Habits]

Do both bars flex the same because that's a big deal to me, I can't have any binding.

The only way to really tell would be to do the fork lift test on a set of PMF bars comparitively like we do on the OUO bars. The way Dave's Pivot mount works, the bar can move up and down allowing the bar to follow its path of travel without binding.

Here's a cool video to watch..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S86cnTd9XMk

 

[Dzchey21]

I'm glad to see not much has changed around here.

 

[WHY NOT]

I'm glad to see not much has changed around here.

Sent from my I fone 5