Why Does a Wicked Wheel......

Charles

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A centrifugal compressor likes to move more volume flow as it produces greater pressure. If the pressure continues to increase without sufficient gains to volume flow across the wheel, such as what happens as rpm is held relatively constant and boost keeps increasing, at some point the wheel is going to lose it's grip on the air, and "slip" if you will. When this happens the flow becomes unstable kind of like gears jumping teeth, the blades loose the air momentarily. When this happens the pressure momentarily drops dramatically, allowing the wheel to regain "traction" if you will, where it nearly immediately catches and throws the pressure too high, where it loses traction and slips again, and again, and again until either the volume flow increases (engine rpm comes up) or boost decreases (you lift out of the throttle to some degree).

If you look at a compressor map the surge line is the far left line plotted up that side. Anything to the left of this line represents combinations of pressure and flow where the flow is too little and the pressure to much for the compressor to remain stable. It will start to chop and miss if asked to run there.

What a ported compressor housing does is specifically to bleed air midway down the wheel back into the compressor inlet, allowing the wheel to run a portion of the air round and round in circles right back to itself. This allows the flow across the wheel to come up. And even though it's not actually going into the engine or even out of the turbocharger, the wheel doesn't care, it still gets to move more CFM which allows it to remain stable at higher pressures for any given discharge CFM.

The Wicked wheel simply flows less CFM in its wheel design, and due to a less aggressive blade style it is more stable at lower flow rates at the cost of top end performance. Just like you can pick cam profiles that work better at certain engine rpm, you can select compressor wheels of the same diameter that work different at varying flow rates and pressure ratios. The wicked wheel is likely more suited to lower ultimate pressure ratio usage but has a broader stability region in terms of flow. The late model OEM wheel is probably a bit more efficient at higher boost and higher flow rates at the cost of low rpm compressor stability, which we see as surge when we ask for too much boost down low.
 

Talyn

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A centrifugal compressor likes to move more volume flow as it produces greater pressure. If the pressure continues to increase without sufficient gains to volume flow across the wheel, such as what happens as rpm is held relatively constant and boost keeps increasing, at some point the wheel is going to lose it's grip on the air, and "slip" if you will. When this happens the flow becomes unstable kind of like gears jumping teeth, the blades loose the air momentarily. When this happens the pressure momentarily drops dramatically, allowing the wheel to regain "traction" if you will, where it nearly immediately catches and throws the pressure too high, where it loses traction and slips again, and again, and again until either the volume flow increases (engine rpm comes up) or boost decreases (you lift out of the throttle to some degree).

If you look at a compressor map the surge line is the far left line plotted up that side. Anything to the left of this line represents combinations of pressure and flow where the flow is too little and the pressure to much for the compressor to remain stable. It will start to chop and miss if asked to run there.

What a ported compressor housing does is specifically to bleed air midway down the wheel back into the compressor inlet, allowing the wheel to run a portion of the air round and round in circles right back to itself. This allows the flow across the wheel to come up. And even though it's not actually going into the engine or even out of the turbocharger, the wheel doesn't care, it still gets to move more CFM which allows it to remain stable at higher pressures for any given discharge CFM.

The Wicked wheel simply flows less CFM in its wheel design, and due to a less aggressive blade style it is more stable at lower flow rates at the cost of top end performance. Just like you can pick cam profiles that work better at certain engine rpm, you can select compressor wheels of the same diameter that work different at varying flow rates and pressure ratios. The wicked wheel is likely more suited to lower ultimate pressure ratio usage but has a broader stability region in terms of flow. The late model OEM wheel is probably a bit more efficient at higher boost and higher flow rates at the cost of low rpm compressor stability, which we see as surge when we ask for too much boost down low.

Somebody give this man a cookie.
 

KPSquared

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So would the ported housing still present a similar loss in top end performance being as your still not pushing all that air into the engine but just recirculating it? Or is there still a greater volume available as compared to the WW?
 

TrailerHauler

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Good point. Then what is different from one truck to another? If I put my old stock charger that never surged in my truck with stock injectors or 175cc single-shots on a truck with nasty surge on stock sticks, would it surge?

The same PSD guru who told me he thought the surge was due to casting differences also said a Ford factory tech told him they pulled as many as 1 in 20 engines off the line because 'they made too much HP'. I dunno how much stock to put in all that, but I've never heard a better explanation. If all the tolerances line up in your favor, you got a factory hot rod, but if they are all at the minimum, ya got a factory turd. I can say after monitoring ICP on a number of trucks, its amazing how much better an 'all stock' truck that holds 2800psi runs than one that only makes 2100psi. Could this be from factory tolerances as well?

Isn't surge generally blamed on excessive drive pressure? What other variation could there be from one engine to the next that could affect that?

Explain why out of two IDENTICAL 7.3s one gets substantially better fuel economy than the other. Like you said yourself no two engines are identical, and the exhaust housing is not the only factor in surge.

Is it a wash? 1 as good as the other?
That's the way I see it Joe, and one is about four times the cost of the other.
 

JoeDaddy

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That's the way I see it Joe, and one is about four times the cost of the other.

No doubt! Somebody's making a killing off a lil grinding. LOL

Since the ww has less surface area to grab air wouldn't this also reduce dp and egt, and boost higher in the powerband? Sorry if this was answered already but I have to admit most of this is Chinese to me.
 

CSIPSD

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The Ported compressor housing will move more air, its still got the more efficient compressor wheel but with the bleed ring the unneeded air has somewhere to go....

Housing is a win IMHO. WW is a bandaid.
 

JoeDaddy

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The Ported compressor housing will move more air, its still got the more efficient compressor wheel but with the bleed ring the unneeded air has somewhere to go....

Housing is a win IMHO. WW is a bandaid.

IOW it has a greater potential for more power than the ww?

On edit I went through Charles' post again... And again to better understand. If I'm getting it straight this time, both are giving the effect of a wg... correct? Only internally on the compressor side. If this is so I can answer my own question with a Yes. The ported housing will make more power. Is there any towing in o/d side effects, will it bleed to much at hwy speed say... climbing hills?
 
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CSIPSD

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Overall I would say yes. But I think with the limitations of the Factory turbo design your going to push it far out of its MAP with a housing or a wheel.
 

Charles

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IOW it has a greater potential for more power than the ww?

On edit I went through Charles' post again... And again to better understand. If I'm getting it straight this time, both are giving the effect of a wg... correct? Only internally on the compressor side. If this is so I can answer my own question with a Yes. The ported housing will make more power. Is there any towing in o/d side effects, will it bleed to much at hwy speed say... climbing hills?


It's not conceptually the same as what a wastegate does. A gate actually controls the shaft speed and limits the pressure the compressor builds. With either the wheel or ported compressor housing the pressure can still be high, yet the wheel stays stable, in the case of the wheel because the wheel geometry is better suited to higher pressure at lower flow and in the case of the housing because it recirculates enough flow to keep even the more aggressive wheel stable when the engine itself isn't ingesting enough air to keep the wheel stable at the pressure in question.
 

PStroked444

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the compressor wheel is pushing air into the motor. But with tuning the compressor wheel spins faster than a stock tune. What is really happening is it is trying to push more air in than it can handle. Kinda like you trying to dig more dirt out of a hole than the shovel can hold. It looses some off the sides. The bleed ring helps the keep air moving into the motor by bleeding the extra buildup. The wheel is using the tip to pull air in and down lower it starts to compress it. When the compressor starts to load up full of air more and more of the wheel is trying to push the air in and less and less of the wheel is used to bring air in. Thats why you get the surge. The boost needle bounces. Builds pressure then looses its pressure then starts to build boost again. The bleed ring is that line where it says "extra air go in the motor or leave here".

I hope this eplains it good enough. I am no expert but that is similar to how it was described to me.

JMHO :D
 

TrailerHauler

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The Ported compressor housing will move more air, its still got the more efficient compressor wheel but with the bleed ring the unneeded air has somewhere to go....

Housing is a win IMHO. WW is a bandaid.

That's the way I see it, but at the same time its like a gold plated turd. The factory turbo isn't that great to begin with so why spend the money on a good permanent fix for it rather than putting a WW in until you can, or decide to upgrade the turbo.
I guess for the guy that will never do anything more than tow his travel trailer with a tune the housing would be a good route.
 

KPSquared

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What about the guy that is more than happy to sacrifice a bit of power to get rid of that annoying surge? If I have the choice of $100 vs $400 then I'm gonna take the cheaper option... bandaid or not, it's all I'd ever need as long as it cured the surge.

i just drive to work, pull the odd trailer, and once in a while hammer the thottle for kicks... don't need the best, just the best bang for the buck... and I don't believe a housing is a $300 difference.

Dyno time? or does anyone even care that much...
 

CSIPSD

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What about the guy that is more than happy to sacrifice a bit of power to get rid of that annoying surge? If I have the choice of $100 vs $400 then I'm gonna take the cheaper option... bandaid or not, it's all I'd ever need as long as it cured the surge.

i just drive to work, pull the odd trailer, and once in a while hammer the thottle for kicks... don't need the best, just the best bang for the buck... and I don't believe a housing is a $300 difference.

Dyno time? or does anyone even care that much...

I ran the WW, and the WW-ATS combo and the ATS housing...

The WW worked for about 70% of surge... The WW/ATS combo worked for everything but was loud as hell... The ATS housing worked for everything and was nice and quiet.

WW is a bandaid because your loosing bottom end power and it will not stop all surge issues, it just moves the surge line.

ATS housing will stop it cold.
 

steele86

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your right, thats what i have done as well and i ended up just using the housing, theres so many people that think once you start having surge its time to get a new turbo in most chases thats true cuz there running big oil injs big tunes and they want 450+ but on the other hand if your not running big tunes or big injs the gtp38 is a good turbo to work with they are easy to rebuild you can build them up to 38r if you want the only thing that is really differnet is the 38r has ball bearings. my best friend has has big oil injs and big tunes and a build gtp38 and he dyno's low 400's he build that turbo for 800 or 900 buck
 

PStroked444

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Like CSI said I have run WW and ATS very loud. I swapped to the stock wheel to see if there was a difference. There was. I gained fuel milage. Plus I gained a quieter ride. Also my exhaust cleared up with the stock wheel. I have driven from FL to AZ pulling heavy with no problems. No surge. But yes for the simple guy a 80 dollar wheel is much cheaper then 400+ for a Housing. With the WW I felt like I was missing more topend. But could be me or my truck.:toast:
 

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