B code v.s. Hybrid

[TyCorr]

I thought thuglike had 250cc Industrial Injection sticks in his truck? Im pretty sure Ive read that several places.

 

[TyCorr]

Now what do you call big power, keep in mind for this discussion we are talking about a DD street truck with more than likely a single turbo?

Oh and to add to the discussion, Id say over 600hp is 'big' power for a dd with one charger.

Realistically 500hp is a lot for a dd. I mean how fast do you need to get to the speed limit? LOL

I just want to be a couple hundred higher than where I am now..

 

[rollingthunder]

Got this on another site to add some info for guys on the differences on the injectors--helped me :blitzed:


Larger nozzles- By installing larger nozzles you are makeing the nozzles less restrictive so that more fuel will flow out of them with everything else being the same. Stock injectors with stock programming and larger nozzles will get more fuel out and make more power. Stock injectors only modified to have more fuel capacity with stock nozzles and stock programing will run exactly like stock injectors. In this case the only way to get more fuel out is with a chip to extend the open time of the injector and/or increase the Injection Control Pressure (ICP) to push more fuel out the nozzle. On the same note if you say make a hybrid (installing a larger 7mm plunger and barrel out of a DT466/I530E injector) and leaving the intensifier piston the same will effectively reduce your injection pressure. This less injection pressure will make less pressure at the nozzle and will actually flow less fuel with a stock nozzle than a bone stock injector. So to get the fuel out without a chip you would need larger nozzles.

There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.

Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.

All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.

Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.

A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.

A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.

AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.

AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.

AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.

AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.

BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.

BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.

BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.

EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.

 

[thuglike]

I thought thuglike had 250cc Industrial Injection sticks in his truck? Im pretty sure Ive read that several places.

The injectors are made by II....I got them from Dave at DI when I picked up the truck.

They are 250/200 SHO Hybrids. (Super high output) although II calls them "oil side mod" sticks

 

[Gearhead]

Got this on another site to add some info for guys on the differences on the injectors--helped me :blitzed:


Larger nozzles- By installing larger nozzles you are makeing the nozzles less restrictive so that more fuel will flow out of them with everything else being the same. Stock injectors with stock programming and larger nozzles will get more fuel out and make more power. Stock injectors only modified to have more fuel capacity with stock nozzles and stock programing will run exactly like stock injectors. In this case the only way to get more fuel out is with a chip to extend the open time of the injector and/or increase the Injection Control Pressure (ICP) to push more fuel out the nozzle. On the same note if you say make a hybrid (installing a larger 7mm plunger and barrel out of a DT466/I530E injector) and leaving the intensifier piston the same will effectively reduce your injection pressure. This less injection pressure will make less pressure at the nozzle and will actually flow less fuel with a stock nozzle than a bone stock injector. So to get the fuel out without a chip you would need larger nozzles.

There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.

Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.

All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.

Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.

A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.

A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.

AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.

AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.

AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.

AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.

BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.

BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.

BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.

EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.

Although it is useful information, the injector with the most fuel per time with the same nozzle is the one with the highest injection pressure and it is often the 5:1 injector.

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

Although it is useful information, the injector with the most fuel per time with the same nozzle is the one with the highest injection pressure and it is often the 5:1 injector.

You need to take a drive down here soon and show me where my upper RPM limit is with B codes:toast:

 

[JoeDaddy]

No curve ball, you stated your limitation, stock turbo.
AC's with a stock nozzle will be more than adequate.

That's kinda what I was wanting to hear. I'm nowhere near "knowing" injectors but am still absorbing data. Seems that what some call the limitation for B's would be very beneficial to someone with a stock or smallish turbo. While if money alowed Hybrids would seem the better choice for big air. Which makes one curious (assuming that theory correct) why the same scenario wouldn't benefit a truck running gobs of smack replacing the boost and aiding the burn especially at high RPM. I'm speaking of course of the WOP Lightning. Not 2nd guessing a team that's far more knowledgable on all things powerstroke than I, but I am curious... why not single shot 400/300's or the like?

 

[Chvyrkr]

You need to take a drive down here soon and show me where my upper RPM limit is with B codes:toast:

Just post a dyno sheet for B codes.

 

[juniort444e]

Im not understanding the arguement here. If a b code has a 7.1 plunger and is single shot and a hybrid has a 7.1 plunger and is a single shot how does one make more power with the same size (cc's) and nozzle. The hybrid uses less oil to inject the same cc's. So im assuming it would be more efficient at doing that.

Also just thinking out my a$$ here again, but isnt it easier to tune a hybrid over a b code, and easier to get the power out with less smoke. Just curious here.

 

[Gearhead]

Im not understanding the arguement here. If a b code has a 7.1 plunger and is single shot and a hybrid has a 7.1 plunger and is a single shot how does one make more power with the same size (cc's) and nozzle. The hybrid uses less oil to inject the same cc's. So im assuming it would be more efficient at doing that.

Also just thinking out my a$$ here again, but isnt it easier to tune a hybrid over a b code, and easier to get the power out with less smoke. Just curious here.

Nothing to do with that. At some point in the flow rate, the oil side can't keep up with the demands of the speed needed to drive the plunger and it slows down and thus a loss in injection pressure. I like the hybrids, but some tuners prefer A codes even....

Charles gave a good analogy once. It like driving a full manual-mechanical hydrostatic bobcat and when you first push the levers and it starts to move, you feel like it is going to go 100 miles an hour but once you get to half way on the levers, it won't go any faster because you have maxed the flow. A codes are like this once you get to a decent sized nozzles (I argue that size is actually 80%), hybrids don't, and B codes should be somewhere in between.

 

[juniort444e]

Ok, i understand a little better.

 

[Gearhead]

But B codes do have an advantage with smaller nozzles because they have less parasitic loss due to not needing as much HPO pressure to make the same injection pressure up to a point. I loved how clean my B codes with 200% nozzles were on the street.

 

[juniort444e]

So whats the differenc in a setup like mine, i have 250/200 hybrids with a 4202. Would they make more power overall and how would the b codes act on the street with a big single.

What about a compound setup?

And lastly what about an injector for sled pulling, what would be best for a pulling truck?

 

[Gearhead]

The street situation you would see minor differences but either injector works well.

For a sled pull needing higher rpms for sure, fuel per time is what wins. Powerstrokenstang's setup is probably the best running setup I have ever had the chance to tune. It just works..... It's all about having a wide power band.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Sounds to me like if your just daily driving and not in a competition mind set, you've got big oil, and your tune is willing to live tune or work with you till its perfect... Then you won't notice much difference at 500hp between the 2 types of injectors

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

Sounds to me like if your just daily driving and not in a competition mind set, you've got big oil, and your tune is willing to live tune or work with you till its perfect... Then you won't notice much difference at 500hp between the 2 types of injectors

I have built identical trucks with identical setups accept the injectors and the B code pulled away from the hybrid truck from a dead stop or from a roll the B code truck was always stronger all the way around and that is with both a 38r and a 42R.

 

[Charles]

Couple easy questions... (Completely pretending flow bench data isn't readily available on the subject...)


If the difference between a Hybrid and a B-code is the fact that the B-code has a higher hydraulic ratio (~6:1 vs ~5:1) and you people seem to think a 250 some odd cc B-code is kick ass, plus you think it's because it has "better atomization" due to it's hydraulic ratio, then why do you stop at a B-code? I mean.... if we can EASILY make an A-code that flows well in excess of 250cc, and it's got an even higher hydraulic ratio than a B.... why do you all praise the B so much? What about the poor A?

And in fact.... following this same logic.... what about the reverse hybrid? If 6:1 is better than 5:1, and 7:1 is better than 6:1, then wouldn't 9:1 be better still???


I want to know how you people justify your B-code selection based on the fact that it's a higher hydraulic ratio.... but then don't pick an A for the same reason.... and a reverse hybrid over the A for again, the same reason.

All ears.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

opcorn:

I want to see how some of you respond to Chuck before I toss my 2 cents in. I really do believe that there is a good answer to his question - just like I think there is a good answer to Lott's statements.

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

Couple easy questions... (Completely pretending flow bench data isn't readily available on the subject...)


If the difference between a Hybrid and a B-code is the fact that the B-code has a higher hydraulic ratio (~6:1 vs ~5:1) and you people seem to think a 250 some odd cc B-code is kick ass, plus you think it's because it has "better atomization" due to it's hydraulic ratio, then why do you stop at a B-code? I mean.... if we can EASILY make an A-code that flows well in excess of 250cc, and it's got an even higher hydraulic ratio than a B.... why do you all praise the B so much? What about the poor A?

And in fact.... following this same logic.... what about the reverse hybrid? If 6:1 is better than 5:1, and 7:1 is better than 6:1, then wouldn't 9:1 be better still???


I want to know how you people justify your B-code selection based on the fact that it's a higher hydraulic ratio.... but then don't pick an A for the same reason.... and a reverse hybrid over the A for again, the same reason.

All ears.

Everything being the same the B code moves more QUALITY fuel for the same amount of stroke, problem with a lot of you is your thinking is flawed by a unit of measurement whether is be a flow bench or a dyno, sure those numbers represent something BUT they do not nor can they duplicate actual driving conditions period !!!

How many of you drive your DD at WOT all the time at max boost???

 

[Charles]

Everything being the same the B code moves more QUALITY fuel for the same amount of stroke, problem with a lot of you is your thinking is flawed by a unit of measurement whether is be a flow bench or a dyno, sure those numbers represent something BUT they do not nor can they duplicate actual driving conditions period !!!

How many of you drive your DD at WOT all the time at max boost???

You say the B has higher quality....

If for the moment we just pretend that the hybrid does not move more fuel per time across the SAME orifice (meaning the pressure, atomization and quality are higher for those keeping score...), then pretending that doesn't happen.... then why if the B is better than the Hybrid, is the A not better than the B for the EXACT SAME reason?

And then moving right along.... why then wouldn't the reverse hybrid be better than all of them for the EXACT SAME reason the A was better than the B and the B better than the hybrid???


Lets NOT use flowbench data for a second. Lets just pretend what you're asserting is correct, and the B does in fact achieve a higher level of atomization because of a greater hydraulic ratio.... so why not run an A code then? It's even BETTER than the B according to that logic...

Again....all ears. I really want to know how you people fit these puzzle pieces into your minds in a way that they can actually go together without a hammer.