Blown head gaskets with ARP's

[ford rules]

If your heads were decked, and your block was flat, and properly cleaned without a cookie wheel, you shouldn't have any problems puking with your setup. Period. 425s have been used for years with more boost, hotter temperatures, and higher horsepower for years without issues.

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Completely agree with this^

 

[MorganY]

I agree. But theres nothing I can do about it now. Took it to pse paid 5900 for all the work and it lasted 10 months. *** me right.

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Pull it apart yourself and see what you find. I've torn down other shops work to find uneven spots on heads from poor, rushed cleaning.

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[ford rules]

Any spacial way to deck the heads?
If I buy new heads should I still deck them?

Take them to a reputable machine shop and have them make sure there flat. Buy a straight edge and be sure the block deck is also flat.

 

[swinky]

Pull it apart yourself and see what you find. I've torn down other shops work to find uneven spots on heads from poor, rushed cleaning.

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Yuhpp. Just have to get the money together and find a lift.

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[william_ace]

That's too bad man. I can't believe that it would fail that quickly. What all did Dorian do for that much money?

 

[swinky]

That's too bad man. I can't believe that it would fail that quickly. What all did Dorian do for that much money?

I'll pm you. It was a lot of work. Truck was in rough shape when I brought it in.

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[KCTurbos]

This is entire thread is ridiculous. Standard ARPs have been proven to hold 1000hp, and 50+psi... its all about doing it right. You guys with 190s, and vgt setups are crazy spending $1000+ on studs.

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^^^ So... this is the phrase that people read and then blow their heads over and over gain trying to push 700+hp on oem and standard ARP studs. It has been "proven"... It has been "proven" to hit that high of hp on only a couple of trucks and only last a short term. I would say it is the minority... not the proven majority.

Oh and in case you did not read it... the guy that started this thread is running a non-vgt turbo... Not sure where the vgt comment is coming from.

 

[MorganY]

^^^ So... this is the phrase that people read and then blow their heads over and over gain trying to push 700+hp on oem and standard ARP studs. It has been "proven"... It has been "proven" to hit that high of hp on only a couple of trucks and only last a short term. I would say it is the minority... not the proven majority.

Oh and in case you did not read it... the guy that started this thread is running a non-vgt turbo... Not sure where the vgt comment is coming from.

No. But what I can guarantee you, is that the elastic modulus chosen for the ARP 425 is 60% below the maximum stress/strain that the stud will ever see for the average modded truck. That is MINIMUM engineering standards for today. So you push the stud another 20-30% at 700hp, and maybe what, 50psi overall of boost?...you're still not yielding the stud to permanent deformation (can be a few thousandths of an inch). The fatigue from the cyclic loading, creep, and heat cycles allotted for the stud will not be reached in a period under a year, at 700hp. Fact. There's no debate.


Another thing...Alot of guys end up impact the elastic modulus by over torquing the stud than it was designed for. You've now held the stud to a 20-40% increase before the stud is yielding torquing to 250ft/lbs. There is a reason why torque specs need to be followed. Kobalt/craftsman torque wrenches, not paying attention to sequences, etc account for these failures too that you don't hear about.

The failures were from something that was overlooked and or poorly done.

1000hp, nitrous, 70psi? You will yield them at some point.

 

[KCTurbos]

Either way you put it... calling standard OEMs and Standard ARPs a proven reilable way to make 1000hp is very misleading... I wish people would add in the fact... as long as you are willing to change your gaskets every year, or don't mind puking out the degas bottle while making that power.

I would also venture to say that those failures have less to do with the studs stretching... and more to do with the cylinder heads flexing. I am not saying that the studs don't stretch. But why they typically start blowing half way between the studs. I have pulled gaskets before that were not completely blown but you could see it starting to wear way at the fire ring seal area of the head gaskets. If it was simply the studs stretching then it would not be blowing half way between the studs. That is why Ford/international spent so much time beefing up the 6.4 heads and why they hold up better to . The heads are flexing in between the studs and allowing the hot cylinder gases to eat away at the fire ring area of the MLS gasket. Once it eats all the way through they start to leak slowing... then after a while they completely blow.

Better products, innovation, and people willing to try new things will hopefully some day lead to a much better solution... but simply stating that standard oems and standard ARPs are a reliable way to make 1000hp... when so VERY VERY few people actually did it and most of those setups did not last long before puking... well that is misleading to lots of guys who get on the forums to learn.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

I think that everyone should get their panties out of a bunch over this topic. Seems like the people who are so bent about it are the ones who aren't even making big power. Stop worrying about holding 1000hp if you don't have or never will have 1000hp. Why don't we get a list (a short list...) of the guys on here who have 700+ hp 6.0s and see what stud/gasket combo they have?


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[KCTurbos]

Oh and in case you did not read it... the guy that started this thread is running a non-vgt turbo... Not sure where the vgt comment is coming from.

I hate that you can't edit things sometimes... this comment is incorrect. I thought I was in swinkys thread

 

[swinky]

I think that everyone should get their panties out of a bunch over this topic. Seems like the people who are so bent about it are the ones who aren't even making big power. Stop worrying about holding 1000hp if you don't have or never will have 1000hp. Why don't we get a list (a short list...) of the guys on here who have 700+ hp 6.0s and see what stud/gasket combo they have?


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But you only make 700 on spray. I blew gaskets at 450 with decked heads and arps.

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[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

But you only make 700 on spray. I blew gaskets at 450 with decked heads and arps.

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Should be right around 700 now on fuel. Spray,
Fuel, whatever... It doesn't matter. My point is it's not the arp's that are the issue and it pisses me off seeing all these threads of dudes who make 450hp blaming it on the studs and thinking going to another stud is some magical solution. Not to wish anyone bad luck or to diss 625s or extreme studs but, ****, I hope someone installs 625s or extreme studs on some 450-500hp truck like most in question, and blows gaskets so we can all laugh and say "yep! The stud isn't the issue" LOL


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[KCTurbos]

I think that everyone should get their panties out of a bunch over this topic. Seems like the people who are so bent about it are the ones who aren't even making big power. Stop worrying about holding 1000hp if you don't have or never will have 1000hp. Why don't we get a list (a short list...) of the guys on here who have 700+ hp 6.0s and see what stud/gasket combo they have?


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I think that is a great idea.

I have lots customers/friends that are pushing the 600-700hp and lots of them are finding out the hard way that oems and arps do not hold up to 1000hp... let along 600-700hp. It is quickly blamed on shotty work... but many of them did it right and even tried doing it right a second time with no luck. IT can always be shotty work when anyone gaskets fail.

I am not doubting that shotty work leads to faliures... especially when people have failures at 500hp on oems and standard ARPs. But I am starting to know less and less people pushing 600+ (vgt, nonvgt, or compound) that have had their setup for long periods of time without going back in to change gaskets.


Although I do know a few people using orings, fire rings, and better studs who seem to be having better luck

 

[97strokn&smokn]

My brothers truck has Dynoed over 700 more than one time and has been sled pulled for over 3 years on arp 425, I believe most of the problems with head gaskets is the amount of bp vgt turbos produce especially with bigger sticks. I have seen trucks live along time with oem gaskets and 425 and quit a few with 190s and bigger. Tuning makes a massive deal in keeping these trucks alive and on the road especially when your looking for 500 to 600 nothing can be perfect but there is a lot more to keeping gaskets in these trucks than just stronger studs.

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[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

My brothers truck has Dynoed over 700 more than one time and has been sled pulled for over 3 years on arp 425, I believe most of the problems with head gaskets is the amount of bp vgt turbos produce especially with bigger sticks. I have seen trucks live along time with oem gaskets and 425 and quit a few with 190s and bigger. Tuning makes a massive deal in keeping these trucks alive and on the road especially when your looking for 500 to 600 nothing can be perfect but there is a lot more to keeping gaskets in these trucks than just stronger studs.

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Clearly your brothers truck must be a unicorn lol


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[KCTurbos]

Unicorn... NO... but the majority... I dunno. Not from what I have heard and experienced


Did he mention if he had fire rings or orings also? A lot of guys claim to have great results with standard arps and oem gaskets... and then forget to mention they had orings

 

[97strokn&smokn]

No fire rings.

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[Dirty_Stroke]

My brothers truck has Dynoed over 700 more than one time and has been sled pulled for over 3 years on arp 425, I believe most of the problems with head gaskets is the amount of bp vgt turbos produce especially with bigger sticks. I have seen trucks live along time with oem gaskets and 425 and quit a few with 190s and bigger. Tuning makes a massive deal in keeping these trucks alive and on the road especially when your looking for 500 to 600 nothing can be perfect but there is a lot more to keeping gaskets in these trucks than just stronger studs.

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I think you may be onto something with the back pressure and VGT comment. I'm not pointing any fingers at anybody because I knew the chances I was taking by racing my truck and pushing it so hard so I'm not blaming my turbo by any means. But my truck is NOWHERE near 700hp. I'm just wondering maybe the guys with 700hp and ARP 425's are running non-VGT turbos and that's the reason it's holding.

 

[Jwarren]

I have my figures crossed but my current setup the HG's are holding good so far. I have about a month of solid abuse on the engine since 625's and OEM gaskets been installed. Making close to 800rwhp every day. I usually get on it at least once a day. With the latest turbo upgrade it's making 65psi with a single 475.

I did buy a set of extreme studs, just didn't want to try them until I see results. Ill try them after they have been proven Sucks lifting the cab.

BTW with 425's I didn't quite get a month the heads lifted. Just that simple. Was leaking between all the lower studs. Seams those top little bolts do help by the intake.