Detuning large injector nozzles - How to pick injector size for upgrades!

[Countrycar]

hence the leaks you guys had that where fixed when you swapped over to the t4 setup...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

Nope, the guys I mentioned were already running bellowed uppipes w 38r', double checked for leaks, pressurized the systems and so forth. No leaks.

 

[mikeeg02]

hence the leaks you guys had that where fixed when you swapped over to the t4 setup...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

I built a leak tester, spent some time with it and a bottle of soap and had no leaks on the intake side. I also had bellowed uppipes, and not a sign of soot anywhere.

I could run the 38R in a 2.8 ms tune (with 100% nozzles) and keep it parked at 1250-1300. Any more then that and we run into the issue where I needed to loosen my gate, which I have accepted. I also run ge@rhead which has less fuel then most under 2k rpms, though I did get two PHP tunes with too strong a mid range pedal for my taste.

My biggest complaint was from the mid to top end. Just felt choked. Ive learned that I could fixed most of that, by loosening the gate, but at this point I would absolutely never go back. Id almost pay double what it cost me to go this route. I doubt a single person with a 38R can post a video of a smoke free 15psi maintained 1,500 rpm ( and keep it under 1200*). And not that it matters, but I was pulling long grades at 24.5k (scale verified) and the temps stayed right where they are, no creeping up. Proof is in the videos.

My goals of going T4 (being that Im a hand shaker trans like you) was to potentially gain top end, without losing spool up (maybe even gain a little there if possible, but I was accepting the same results). And this turbo has not only achieved that, but the spoolup with the 1.0 housing is phenomenal. And a "good spoolup" can be taken so many ways. So thats why I have posted the videos showing where and how well it works.

 

[TARM]

That seems just about right. No one ever said there are not better turbos. The issue was with people saying that no matter what the 38r was always hot and smokey turd POS regardless of tune or unless you took it back to stock power. That was what I had issue with as its not true. There is always gonna be a new latest and greatest but that does not mean what is and has been sudden.y no longer can do what it always has. That just moronic.

 

[mikeeg02]

The issue that Swaan and gnxtc2 are referring to though has nothing to do with turbo's. Their issue is cold EOT/motor haze. And thats as far as I can speak intelligently about that. Mine hazes about like Ty's video when cold. If I remember right, somewhere right about ~40* EOT mines clean/clear.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Nope, the guys I mentioned were already running bellowed uppipes w 38r', double checked for leaks, pressurized the systems and so forth. No leaks.

if you say so...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[lincolnlocker]

That seems just about right. No one ever said there are not better turbos. The issue was with people saying that no matter what the 38r was always hot and smokey turd POS regardless of tune or unless you took it back to stock power. That was what I had issue with as its not true. There is always gonna be a new latest and greatest but that does not mean what is and has been sudden.y no longer can do what it always has. That just moronic.

yeah, 38r has been around for ages and has been working just fine when everything is right on the motor.. unless those guys that where trying to get tuning changes done and the truck didn't except the changes(like mine did) then there was other issues unless they where trying to tow or even drive in a tune with an injector thst was tuned bigger then what it should be except for an all out max effort tune..

I built a leak tester, spent some time with it and a bottle of soap and had no leaks on the intake side. I also had bellowed uppipes, and not a sign of soot anywhere.

I could run the 38R in a 2.8 ms tune (with 100% nozzles) and keep it parked at 1250-1300. Any more then that and we run into the issue where I needed to loosen my gate, which I have accepted. I also run ge@rhead which has less fuel then most under 2k rpms, though I did get two PHP tunes with too strong a mid range pedal for my taste.

My biggest complaint was from the mid to top end. Just felt choked. Ive learned that I could fixed most of that, by loosening the gate, but at this point I would absolutely never go back. Id almost pay double what it cost me to go this route. I doubt a single person with a 38R can post a video of a smoke free 15psi maintained 1,500 rpm ( and keep it under 1200*). And not that it matters, but I was pulling long grades at 24.5k (scale verified) and the temps stayed right where they are, no creeping up. Proof is in the videos.

My goals of going T4 (being that Im a hand shaker trans like you) was to potentially gain top end, without losing spool up (maybe even gain a little there if possible, but I was accepting the same results). And this turbo has not only achieved that, but the spoolup with the 1.0 housing is phenomenal. And a "good spoolup" can be taken so many ways. So thats why I have posted the videos showing where and how well it works.

not sure if mine will do 1500 rpm at 15 psi.. my cruising speed with my old fiver in tow in OD was 1800and maybe 10-13 psi. about 60ish mph if I recall.. right around 22k lbs and that is with my hot tune.. only tune it stays in.. and that's a 4r.. not a zf..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[mikeeg02]

Surprisingly enough, I found my original manifold air temp sensor to be leaking between the brass body and the plastic connector. I replaced it with a new ford one, which is all plastic now, and tip in smoke decreased. Though it didnt leak all that much. I never looked at the PID in torque of the temperature before, so I'm not sure if it had an affect on smoke output due to it reading incorrectly. After all it did have 268k on it then. Though it only leaked over 10psi. I would charged it up to ~25 IIRC because after that I was afraid my tester was going to blow off.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Surprisingly enough, I found my original manifold air temp sensor to be leaking between the brass body and the plastic connector. I replaced it with a new ford one, which is all plastic now, and tip in smoke decreased. Though it didnt leak all that much. I never looked at the PID in torque of the temperature before, so I'm not sure if it had an affect on smoke output due to it reading incorrectly. After all it did have 268k on it then. Though it only leaked over 10psi. I would charged it up to ~25 IIRC because after that I was afraid my tester was going to blow off.

I have had leaks on the compressor side all over the place.. lol.. boots leak at low boost bUT not at high boost, both intake runners leaked around head to runner surface, twice.. lol sensors leaking, red line to wastegate leaking, green reference line to waste gate controller leaking, forgot to tighten worm clamp on compressor housing to intake spider so it leaked there when I swapped to the 11 blade billet wheel.. the absolute hardest ones to find where the intake plenums.. so slow of a leak that you couldn't hear it and with the soapy water it bubbled up dam near all the way around both runners with one big bubble after a few min..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TARM]

I too only changed just a turbo while leaving tuning alone. The sxe without a doubt cleaned up smoke and lowered egts.

Not to mention if let say it was fueled heavy for the 38r and you now move to a turbo that moves more air as this one obviously does you now have cleaned up the fuel and the tune has stayed the same. That has been one of my points all along. You can two areas you can change, fuel and air. Change either without adjusting the tune will effect these area such as egts and smoke as well as power. If you have a engine tuned correctly when you make a change to something that effects fuel or air you should have to adjust the tune to either clear up smoke etc or on the opposite side up the fuel for the increase in air for to bring the power up to what the air gets you. I hope that makes at least some sense as it sort of talking in a circle.

No matter what if you can get a truck with injectors to idle and not smoke with no turbo on it at all you sure as hell can do with one. Its that simple; really.

 

[Countrycar]

Lincolnlocker, I'm sorry if I came off a bit short or abrasive. I didn't mean it this way. Sometimes responses or replies to another person can seem or feel like someone is calling a person out. This how ever was not my intention. No more hijack, sorry guys..

 

[TARM]

CountryCar,

I think you go out of your way to insure you do not come off abrasive.

 

[mikeeg02]

CountryCar,

I think you go out of your way to insure you do not come off abrasive.

Agreed there. Much better than I do. Though I don't do it intentionally. My mind just works too bluntly sometimes I'm afraid.

 

[Countrycar]

CountryCar,

I think you go out of your way to insure you do not come off abrasive.

Thanks Pal/Guys..:toast:

 

[lincolnlocker]

Not to mention if let say it was fueled heavy for the 38r and you now move to a turbo that moves more air as this one obviously does you now have cleaned up the fuel and the tune has stayed the same. That has been one of my points all along. You can two areas you can change, fuel and air. Change either without adjusting the tune will effect these area such as egts and smoke as well as power. If you have a engine tuned correctly when you make a change to something that effects fuel or air you should have to adjust the tune to either clear up smoke etc or on the opposite side up the fuel for the increase in air for to bring the power up to what the air gets you. I hope that makes at least some sense as it sort of talking in a circle.

No matter what if you can get a truck with injectors to idle and not smoke with no turbo on it at all you sure as hell can do with one. Its that simple; really.

thank you.. that sums up the entire discussion. way easier to understand in your words!! as usual..

Lincolnlocker, I'm sorry if I came off a bit short or abrasive. I didn't mean it this way. Sometimes responses or replies to another person can seem or feel like someone is calling a person out. This how ever was not my intention. No more hijack, sorry guys..

nah man. not even a thang... I was basically trying to get at what tarm has said all along.. specifically in his last post..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[mikeeg02]

Not to mention if let say it was fueled heavy for the 38r and you now move to a turbo that moves more air as this one obviously does you now have cleaned up the fuel and the tune has stayed the same. That has been one of my points all along. You can two areas you can change, fuel and air. Change either without adjusting the tune will effect these area such as egts and smoke as well as power. If you have a engine tuned correctly when you make a change to something that effects fuel or air you should have to adjust the tune to either clear up smoke etc or on the opposite side up the fuel for the increase in air for to bring the power up to what the air gets you. I hope that makes at least some sense as it sort of talking in a circle.

No matter what if you can get a truck with injectors to idle and not smoke with no turbo on it at all you sure as hell can do with one. Its that simple; really.

Can you pull the fuel out as you say to make the 38R happier on the bottom scale without limiting horsepower ? I realize that my new setup makes more air, and as you said matches my fuel better. But maybe my expectations for lower rpm horsepower were just too high for the old turbo setup ? Just want to make sure I'm conpletely understanding what you're saying.

Edit: I guess what I've found is I'm happy with the performance of my 3.2 ms tune and current setup. Except when I'm doing stupid things and think I need more . And with the old turbo I was only happy with the gauge readings of the 2.8ms tune. But still wanted the performance that the 3.2ms tune has.

 

[TyCorr]

Not to mention if let say it was fueled heavy for the 38r and you now move to a turbo that moves more air as this one obviously does you now have cleaned up the fuel and the tune has stayed the same. That has been one of my points all along. You can two areas you can change, fuel and air. Change either without adjusting the tune will effect these area such as egts and smoke as well as power. If you have a engine tuned correctly when you make a change to something that effects fuel or air you should have to adjust the tune to either clear up smoke etc or on the opposite side up the fuel for the increase in air for to bring the power up to what the air gets you. I hope that makes at least some sense as it sort of talking in a circle.

No matter what if you can get a truck with injectors to idle and not smoke with no turbo on it at all you sure as hell can do with one. Its that simple; really.

Ive talked with quite a few tuners and they arent doing anything much different with tuning for a 38r versus a s400 truck. So they are usually overfueled to the nuts in hotter tunes and larger throttle inputs.

If cracking the gate open "fixes" it, thats the proof in the pudding. You just relieved an overfueled situation.

 

[TyCorr]

Can you pull the fuel out as you say to make the 38R happier on the bottom scale without limiting horsepower ? I realize that my new setup makes more air, and as you said matches my fuel better. But maybe my expectations for lower rpm horsepower were just too high for the old turbo setup ? Just want to make sure I'm conpletely understanding what you're saying.

Edit: I guess what I've found is I'm happy with the performance of my 3.2 ms tune and current setup. Except when I'm doing stupid things and think I need more . And with the old turbo I was only happy with the gauge readings of the 2.8ms tune. But still wanted the performance that the 3.2ms tune has.

I have tunes with over 3.2 ms of pw and it barely hazes in those tunes at wot. But i have that pos billet jobber thats supposed to shine there.

My truck pulls like a mother***ker in the 450-500 hp range. You can get behind a slow dikk on the expressway doing 40 and if you go about 3/4 throttle you can double your speed in about 5 seconds. So maybe up top that wheel is good. Id sure like the midrange of the cast wheel for just about everything else but the noise deters me.

 

[The Brad]

If cracking the gate open "fixes" it, thats the proof in the pudding. You just relieved an overfueled situation.

Or an under aired situation.

 

[TyCorr]

Or an under aired situation.

Thats a piss poor way of looking at it. You dont max out hard parts with easily manipulated electronics and then claim the system or parts are defective.

You needed tuning adjusted or some insight into adjustment of drive pressure management.

Ill concede that you did fix the problem in your situation but you blamed the hard parts not the variable abstract of tuning. If tuning wasnt the answer why wouldnt you have one tune and six different turbos? "Turbo one is my stockish turbo. Turbo two is my heavy tow charger.....six is my ______ turbo."

And to be fair and transparent you dont gain "air" by gate tuning.

 

[TyCorr]

The brad, you ever had valvetrain issues?