Detuning large injector nozzles - How to pick injector size for upgrades!

[KCTurbos]

Most tuners should have the full spectrum of tunes written for those combos by now. Php sent me stock to race 3 years ago. Similar tunes to which made 600hp on another guys truck. I just got dynoproven tunes and zero issues. Well my trans is dying LOL

You are right tuners should have a full spectrum of tunes out there... but why do you think one of the most popular 7.3 tuners out there is pushing smaller nozzles for guys that don't need larger injectors??? I would venture to say it is because the guys that have larger nozzles usually end up having more issues, harder to tow, more egts, more smoke, ETC... when compared to someone that went with smaller nozzles.


My only point was... if you don't need the larger nozzles then save yourself some time and hassle.

 

[TyCorr]

The really funny thing is these 200% nozzles are used in 300hp international truck engines.

 

[KCTurbos]

The really funny thing is these 200% nozzles are used in 300hp international truck engines.

What RPMS do they spin at? What gears do they have? I bet they gear them so they don't spend much time below 2000rpms


Bigger nozzles run GREAT at higher rpms. It is a trade off

EDIT: I also wonder how much they care about smoke output and EGTs? When compared to the average picky powerstroke owner.

 

[superpsd]

My 200% nozzles are smokeless driving around daily and lightly towing. I do not have a typical setup however. Typically cruising EGTs are a couple hundred degrees cooler as well. It is not just the size of the nozzle it's the quality of nozzle and the injector along with the entire setup. Type of injector condition of engine and electronics, turbo, hpop, gearing & transmission type, driving style etc etc....climate, environment, altitude and so on.

 

[KCTurbos]

My 200% nozzles are smokeless driving around daily and lightly towing. I do not have a typical setup however. Typically cruising EGTs are a couple hundred degrees cooler as well. It is not just the size of the nozzle it's the quality of nozzle and the injector along with the entire setup. Type of injector condition of engine and electronics, turbo, hpop, gearing & transmission type, driving style etc etc....climate, environment, altitude and so on.

Yes. I agree that great combos come together great.


Do you theorize that with the EXACT same setup and lets say 100% nozzles, same amount of tuning time... what do you think the affect on your setup would be. Not being sarcastic at all. Serious question.

If you are curious. Drive down to AZ and we will spend the whole weekend on my dyno testing it. Free dyno time. Can't beat that.

 

[TyCorr]

What RPMS do they spin at? What gears do they have? I bet they gear them so they don't spend much time below 2000rpms


Bigger nozzles run GREAT at higher rpms. It is a trade off

EDIT: I also wonder how much they care about smoke output and EGTs? When compared to the average picky powerstroke owner.

We're talking medium duty....and you realize that international and cat have huge hpops? Icp isnt an issue.

My point, and only point is they arent made just for high rpm etc. And the tuning measures to get them operating arent drastic on our engines either.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse though.

 

[mandkole]

What RPMS do they spin at? What gears do they have? I bet they gear them so they don't spend much time below 2000rpms


Bigger nozzles run GREAT at higher rpms. It is a trade off

EDIT: I also wonder how much they care about smoke output and EGTs? When compared to the average picky powerstroke owner.

Was probably lower rpm.. Even though the nozzle came on a production Navi injector, its apples and oranges to compare those engines to the 7.3. The GT42 ran on a 12.7 Series 60 as well.... :thumbsup:

 

[KCTurbos]

We're talking medium duty....and you realize that international and cat have huge hpops? Icp isnt an issue.

My point, and only point is they arent made just for high rpm etc. And the tuning measures to get them operating arent drastic on our engines either.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse though.

Let me ask you one more question... not beating a dead horse. But a serious question.

If there is ZERO downside to running GIANT nozzles (200%+), then why don't all tuners, manufacturers, and platforms do it? If it just came to tuning, which apparently has been figured out, then why even offer smaller nozzles?

 

[superpsd]

The DT466 heui engine makes peak power at much less Rs than a T444E. They also use larger B code injectors with nozzles of a different spray pattern that flow more than a stock 7 hole powerstroke T444E engine. The DT466 and I530E engines use 5 or 6 hole nozzles depending on injector. Simple fluid dynamics would say that the less the holes the larger the holes would need to be to flow more than a stock "146" powerstroke nozzle. The B code injector (same style I run) also had a lower 6:1 hydraulic ratio. Those B codes also use some of the same internal parts that build a hybrid.

 

[KCTurbos]

The DT466 heui engine makes peak power at much less Rs than a T444E. They also use larger B code injectors with nozzles of a different spray pattern that flow more than a stock 7 hole powerstroke T444E engine. The DT466 and I530E engines use 5 or 6 hole nozzles depending on injector. Simple fluid dynamics would say that the less the holes the larger the holes would need to be to flow more than a stock "146" powerstroke nozzle. The B code injector (same style I run) also had a lower 6:1 hydraulic ratio

Good info... I am not well educated on the other platforms.

 

[TyCorr]

Let me ask you one more question... not beating a dead horse. But a serious question.

If there is ZERO downside to running GIANT nozzles (200%+), then why don't all tuners, manufacturers, and platforms do it? If it just came to tuning, which apparently has been figured out, then why even offer smaller nozzles?

Good question. Its a goal we should work on. Theres no reason with our displacement and time with this platform we arent running around empty with 550-700hp and then cutting it back to 350whp when towing.

Stock for stock tune, i wouldnt trade any of the benefits of a stock setup for the alleged problems that I supposedly have with my setup. My "stock" tune is 350+ versus 260-300 on a stock truck. In that tune you could get that result with a 38r and 250/200s. Slightly more powerful than a tuned stock truck but the egts can reach 1100 degrees versus 1400+ on a truck with 86k MS of pw struggling to break 300hp.

I mean my injector is 250cc....woopty do...

 

[m_j]

I must have missed the benefit of the small nozzle...the part about requiring a super long pw sounded like a detriment

as to why the other platforms dont increase nozzle size...well they do actually if it is the bottleneck for the power they are trying to make.

 

[jeremiahmercier]

With Stage 1's and stage 2's paired with a D66 RPM would sometimes be needed to cool EGT'S. This was required because it's a ****ty turbo! Now running 250/100's and the BASB the high RPM doesn't do as much because the turbo is already flowing so well. I guarantee if you run this turbo you will be shocked, I hardly ever feel under the turbo. No live tuning just sent data logs into PHP for revisions. I tow everyday and sometimes heavy and I am impressed with the truck daily, the turbo flat makes it a different animal.

Yup, loved that turbo for towing, probably could've thrown the egt guage out

06-6.0l, CCLB 4X4, studded, reworked heads, egr gone, cab reroute, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, updated dummy plugs, stand pipe, and stc fitting; New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, powermax turbo, and Geerhead tunes, 325/65R18

 

[TyCorr]

I must have missed the benefit of the small nozzle...the part about requiring a super long pw sounded like a detriment

as to why the other platforms dont increase nozzle size...well they do actually if it is the bottleneck for the power they are trying to make.

It helps build boost; its like putting a brick wall in front of your truck!

 

[KCTurbos]

I must have missed the benefit of the small nozzle...the part about requiring a super long pw sounded like a detriment

as to why the other platforms dont increase nozzle size...well they do actually if it is the bottleneck for the power they are trying to make.

There is lots of good info in this thread if you can read through a lot of the BS. Go back and read the first post that Jay put up. A smaller nozzles takes better advantage of the full range of the stroke without haveing to sacrifice atomization at lower rpms. You are able to acheive more torque down low which helps for daily driving and towing.


I was not stating that other platforms don't increase nozzle size. I was saying that EVERY platform has different nozzle sizes. Just like how every platoform has different sized turbos.

It is all a trade off when it comes to nozzle sizes (and turbos). IN ANY PLATORM. They all have different sizes and there is always trade off. Going biggers has its advantages, but staying smaller also has its advantages. If it was possible for ONE INJECTOR size to do EVERYTHING everyone wants, with just a lot of tuning... then there would only be one injector size (or turbo size).


My offer still stands... any of you guys that have it "all figured out" are more than welcome to come spend the whole weekend on my dyno testing it so you can see for yourself. I have already tested this many times (along with many others)... and can even do it again. But I know I will hear "you just didn't tune it right". I will even provide the injectors/nozzles needed. Free dyno time to test your truck and live tune it on the dyno sounds like a great deal to me.

 

[TyCorr]

I appreciate your enthusiasm and I hope someone takes you up on it. Having already done just that, Im not interested. Im the guy that read threads like this for ten years but wanted the hybrids. So I got 175/80s because thats all I would ever need. Then spent another trucks worth on mods that "would maximize the use" of the tiny ass injectors. As stated ninety million times, tuned to run decently, those 175/80s and such are only squeaky clean to 400ish hp give or take a few. In the "race" type tunes they get hot, guzzle icp, and require microwave dinner length intervals of time in ms to make hot, smoky embarrasing horsepower. But hey after a built trans, heads, turbo, billet hpop, and fuel system i did gain about another ten useable horsepower. What a joke. Id never recommend them to someone unless they literally had NO clue. If someone CHOOSES those, fine. Thats on them as it was on me. But having a customer with a tining issue is more frustrating than a guy who bought a codes and has been told "buy this to fix ____" and "if you get a fuel system it will fix....." to try to cover up the fact you should have told him to get larger capacity right off the bat? In other words, the pitch didnt live up to the hype.

You guys selling this crap have your opinions and us that gave paid for it all have ours too. A 238/80 would have been a better recommendation for me.

Before the jumping on begins, my truck wasnt tuned to orove that 175/80s can make close to 500hp. It was tuned to see how much power they could make. Cleanly. First whack was 425hp but it would smoke and pretty bad if you werent driving to control the smoke. Retuned it was better. Then i got a third and it was all straight. But it dynoed 410hp if i remember correctly. I even switched to a 100% nozzle because that was supposed to be better. I wound up with smoky idle and bad tip in smoke control. This was in the 11s when we made a conscious effort to get rid of smoke on modded trucks.

If I had the experience and $$$ lessons here and was doing it all over. Those a codes would never have been used. I think id have tried a 238/80 but thats just because of the hype around them but 250/200s have been great for me.

Out of all this, im not sure what the issue really is. As stated, ive had three different sets of tunes for my setup and barring one tune i havent had any tuning issues. Just providing my info and mods, tunes are great.

 

[superpsd]

I appreciate experienced tuners sharing their views experience and knowledge. A few things however don't add up. One example as said in the first post "smaller nozzles create better atomization which reduce egts" However many who run larger 100% and 200% nozzles report lower egts would this not indicate a more efficient burn? I for one run a 7.3 daily with 200% nozzles and see reduced egts when cruising and at low engine speed at the same time having of course much more power and torque than tiny stock injectors.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

Did you ever get taken up on this offer? I always like to see the numbers that back up the claims.

Nope.

 

[KCTurbos]

I appreciate experienced tuners sharing their views experience and knowledge. A few things however don't add up. One example as said in the first post "smaller nozzles create better atomization which reduce egts" However many who run larger 100% and 200% nozzles report lower egts would this not indicate a more efficient burn? I for one run a 7.3 daily with 200% nozzles and see reduced egts when cruising and at low engine speed at the same time having of course much more power and torque than tiny stock injectors.

Efficient is a term of relativity... depends on what you consider more efficent.

I don't doubt that larger nozzles produce cooler egts and more power in certain conditions. We all know that bigger nozzles make more power up top, no one is disputing that. We all know that bigger nozzles have huge advantages. THE PART YOU ARE MISSING/IGNORING is they also produce less power, and more smoke in ceratin conditions.

Granted... a supercharged setup is not going to be a very good comparison for the average turbo setup. With instant boost you are not as worried about fuel delievery down low like a turbocharged setup that has to wait for the turbo to spool up.



I can tell you from every test we have done, street driving, dyno testing, customer feedback etc... when just switching nozzles it is always the same. You sacrifice top end for bottom end. Yes you can spend time live tuning and tweaking a setup with larger nozzles to run better... BUT IF YOU SPEND THE SAME TIME tweaking the setup and tuning smaller nozzles then you will end up with the exact same results. Top end for bottom end.


Althlough... the more supporting mods you have, the less dramatic the bottom end results become. Basically with enough supporting mods the gains from smaller nozzles become marginal... like when someone adds compounds, supercharger, tons of engine work, etc. The results will be much more obvious on a simple turbo/injector/tune truck.




It has been years since I have swapped nozzles back to back. The knowledge is out there and can be researched in just about every platform. So I have not saved EVERY dyno run I have done. But I did manage to find one that will show what I am talking about.

This is was simply a nozzle swap test with tuning tweaks. NOTHING ELSE WAS CHANGED. Same truck, same dyno, same turbo, same SAE correction factor, etc.

IGNORE THE BLACK AREA... that was just due to starting the dyno run a little later so the truck would not downshift. This was a street tune so if you rolled into too hard it would downshift. If we were to write a dyno tune that never downshifts then the black area would disappear and the green area would be much larger.

GREEN AREA: This is the area where the smaller nozzles will shine. More tq and Hp at lower rpms. Quicker spool up down low. Hot and smokey up top.

BLACK AREA: This is the area where the larger nozzles shine. More HP and TQ in the higher RPM band. The setup was smokier down low and lost a lot of pep for daily driving. The top end power gain was huge and obvious even without a dyno. Truck was a lot harder to tow in this application.



http://s280.photobucket.com/user/chstfish/media/dynopic_zpsfb5dc470.png.html?o=213

 

[superpsd]

I think one huge piece of the puzzle is likely the quality of the injector and quality of nozzle. Also the internal mods that can be done would likely create an even better daily driven injector. Every builder is building injectors differently. Some are cutting corners for dollars over quality. I would put my 200% nozzles being clean on the 3700 VOP. The higher the VOP the more pressure built up before the nozzle opens which will usually create better atomization. Typical A code injectors are set to 2675 VOP. The downside to a higher VOP is a noisier combustion at idle and I think some found with a higher VOP there was some loss up top.