Extended cranking, fuel system tests.

[Tiha]

For kicks here are the results from 3 of the injector tests.

Good, marginal and fail.

 

[Tiha]

I finally started back up on this project.

Got my contamination kit. Started putting injectors in.

I visually check and clean each injector hole before install. A chunk of air line on a blow gun shoved into the hole seems to clean them up perfectly.

Lube up the new injector with fresh oil. Been able to push them down into place. I add a little antiseeze to the hold down bolt.

First 5 went great. pulled injector 6 out of the package and it is missing the o-ring. Ok it happens. I guess.

Grabbed another injector and went to install and it does not want to slide down into the hole as easily as the others. Feels like it was hitting pretty solid. Certainly don't want to use the hold down to force it in there.
In my mind it should go in as easily as they came out. And they all popped right out with very little persuasion.

If it matters This is cylinder No. 7 that it feels like the injector is too big for the hole.

It was late, hot, so I quit for the night. I need to pull it and try a different hole. Or look for marks, Maybe I got a bad one. I don't trust parts at all anymore so would not be surprised if I got one out of spec. In fact maybe I will stick a mic on it tonight and compare it to the other 2 new ones.

Have not torques them, or put the fuel lines on yet.

 

[Tiha]

dang it was too hot to work last night. Got all the injectors in. Then I quit.

So the one that did not fit. I found out I had left the protective cover on the tip when I dropped it in.

Must have been too distracted by the missing o-ring on the previous injector. Second guessing if it was the only one.

Glad I stopped, pulled it and looked again.

the rest of them seated right in.

Next is fuel lines. I am super worried about keeping everything clean. Wondering if there is a way to flush it.

Seen so many installs go bad through the years because people thought it was clean enough. I did not get to pressure wash the engine off before I started and everything you touch is dropping dirt. Especially with the fuel lines you are moving stuff out of the way.

I have often wondered when reading about people with bad injectors out of the box if that is why they failed. Got them dirty during install. Hence why I am trying to do it right.
When looking at different contamination kits from cheap to high end. Reading reviews of different suppliers. I could certainly believe that many of those complaints and failures come from improper installation procedures.

 

[lincolnlocker]

I keep thinking someone will pop in and say, hey when I hook my scanner up I show 59 psi KOEO or something like that.

That 42 psi has always seemed weird to me.

The low pressure switch and pressure sensor are two different things. I would think the Fuel pressure would have to affect something.

As far as starting I suppose I could have a bad switch and a bad pressure sensor. LP switch stuck off. and PCM only looks at the LP switch?

But on the other hand, why haven't I burnt up the CP4 by now if that were the case?

This stuff sucks. When you don't do it everyday for a living the stupidest things can trip you up. Looks like most people online give up and go to the dealer.

When I hook up (a different scan tool) to my 2016 it reads like 350 psi KOEO. So I need to grab one of my other scanners or didn't they change the LPFP in 2015?
Don't know yet. But I will find out.

LPFP didn't change till 17s with the panel filter.


did you try a low pressure fuel pump? Have you monitored both fuel pressures when driving around to see how far they drop when on the throttle hard?

 

[Tiha]

LPFP didn't change till 17s with the panel filter.


did you try a low pressure fuel pump? Have you monitored both fuel pressures when driving around to see how far they drop when on the throttle hard?

I have not tried LPFP yet. I am kind at that point out of desperation.

Will update more in a little bit, but it does not run so I cannot compare. But still while testing it holds fuel pressure at 63 psi all day long. Sometimes a little more.
When I go through any bleeding and testing it is moving fuel like crazy.

Pressure does not drop at all while cranking.

I am stuck at crank no start.

 

[Tiha]

As with any of my personal projects, I never get the easy ones. Like hey, here is a bad injector, replace it and boom done. Nope. not me. not ever it seems.

So here I am. to update I got a contamination kit. Because it was the best deal compared to individual parts. So I just got the motorcraft kit. Thought I would install decent brand name parts and all my problems would be gone.

Started with replacing just the injectors and rails. Just for kicks wanted to see what happens. I did all that. Hooked up the forscan. Tried to start the truck and Nothing, no change in rail pressure. Still does not build rail pressure. At all. None.

I bled it plenty. Kept cycling the key as I was entering the IQA numbers. And nothing. Just like before. Not building rail pressure.

Only code is injector pressure too low while cranking.

honestly expected that because all of the testing I had done previous to tear down said it was a failed CP4.

So onto replacing the CP4. It went very well. I have been lucky all along, no stuck injectors, everything came apart just fine.

Finally get it all back together and absolutely no change. Crank no start, not building any rail pressure. None.

I start going through all the trouble shooting again. Testing the new PCV, VCV, bleeding, purging air.

Even tried some other things. Making sure my trouble codes were cleared before cranking. In doing that I am getting MAP code and Barometric sensor code because the top of the engine is still off.
So I hooked them up and let them lay there. Can't hurt right?

to my surprise after doing so the engine started to build rail pressure while cranking. first try was like 150 psi, second try was like 250, 3rd try was like 1500 psi. 4th try it started and ran. My rail pressure was running plenty high like 6k. but bouncing around. Then the engine died.

Immediately back to crank no start, no rail pressure.

No idea if the MAP and Baro sensor had anything to do with it. I really don't think it did. but things like that distract you just enough to lose sight of the goal.

I had noticed at one point when working on the engine that with the key on, the alternator was hot. So that got me to thinking about stray ac voltage. So I disconnected it. Have the charger on the truck anyway. So no need for an alternator right now.

For kicks I pulled the VCV to inspect. Of course it was clean. While I had it off I cycled the key and a ton of fuel shot out. So it is getting fuel to the vcv and pump. My core is long gone otherwise I would have swapped the VCV to see what happens.

Keep in mind I am working on this in my spare time so i come up with an idea and test it when I can.

Started thinking about PCM. So i did my best to test that. I have 12v at the VCV. yellow wire. Even during cranking. On the blue wire I don't have an oscilloscope so I can't accurately test the PW. But I did watch the voltage change while cranking. It dropped to about 9v dc. to me this also said the PCM is trying to control the VCV and my wiring was good. I even tore apart the plug to the VCV and made sure the wires and connection points were good.
At some point I returned my PCM to stock programming. Like I said, just desperate at this point.
But regardless the PCM seems to be doing what it should. Communicating. Responding. Wiring seems to be good.

I had also removed my fuel cap before doing any of this testing. Cause you just never know. LOL.

Kind of a side note, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I had read, if you crack an injector line KOEO and fuel shoots into the air then you have a bad inlet suction valve. Well I have that with the new pump as well, so that is either BS or my new CP4 has a bad inlet suction valve as well.

So I think now I am at, a mechanically bad VCV. LPFP or maybe even something in the tank blocking flow, or faulty cp4.
Just seems strange to think I can run fuel into a bucket all day long but only have a problem with cranking the truck? I can't get past that. I have the FP gauge tapped to the windshield so I watch it just about every time I crank the engine or cycle the key.

I ordered another VCV. Be here later this week. I am about 50/50 that it will be the problem.

Kind of lean towards that because I have NO rail pressure. Usually you read about guys getting 200 psi or 900 psi or just building slow. I just get nothing, Nada. But that would mean my last VCV was bad too? Doesn't make sense either.

 

[6.0 Tech]

Did you time your hi pressure pump correctly? I’ve never done it wrong, so I can’t say what will happen, but it’s something to check. Also, does it have rpm and sync and all that good stuff? Could be a bad cam sensor or something


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[Tiha]

Did you time your hi pressure pump correctly? I’ve never done it wrong, so I can’t say what will happen, but it’s something to check. Also, does it have rpm and sync and all that good stuff? Could be a bad cam sensor or something


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Yes it is timed, at least like it was. Little confusing at first because 2 marks on both the gears, but I put it back the way it was.

I will have to check the other readings again. Pretty sure it did.

One thing another person mentioned to me got me to thinking about my return fuel. Kind of wondering if I can take the return line off at the LPFP or even tank and run it into a bucket and see what happens. That is something I haven't done yet.

 

[6.0 Tech]

Yes it is timed, at least like it was. Little confusing at first because 2 marks on both the gears, but I put it back the way it was.

I will have to check the other readings again. Pretty sure it did.

One thing another person mentioned to me got me to thinking about my return fuel. Kind of wondering if I can take the return line off at the LPFP or even tank and run it into a bucket and see what happens. That is something I haven't done yet.



View attachment 187175

That is off. 180 degrees off. You use the 2 marks on the pump gear to the 1 mark on the cam gear. If you turn the motor over 360 degrees, the single mark will be up on the cam gear.


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[Tiha]

That is off. 180 degrees off. You use the 2 marks on the pump gear to the 1 mark on the cam gear. If you turn the motor over 360 degrees, the single mark will be up on the cam gear.


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Well that is interesting. That is exactly how it came apart. So I put it back together that way.

The drive gear never left the housing. Keyway was on top on both new and old pumps.

So if that is truly off it has been that way for over 140k miles, meaning it must not matter.

 

[6.0 Tech]

Well that is interesting. That is exactly how it came apart. So I put it back together that way.

The drive gear never left the housing. Keyway was on top on both new and old pumps.

So if that is truly off it has been that way for over 140k miles, meaning it must not matter.

The keyway will still be at the top when it’s 180 off, it’s the cam that’s 180 off. Not sure what exactly it will do, as I said, but it’s not right.


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[6.0 Tech]

Well that is interesting. That is exactly how it came apart. So I put it back together that way.

The drive gear never left the housing. Keyway was on top on both new and old pumps.

So if that is truly off it has been that way for over 140k miles, meaning it must not matter.

What I would do, to rule it out, pull the vacuum pump again, rotate the motor to that spot, pull the pump, and turn the motor over until the single mark is up, put the gear in, and bolt the pump back up and see if it’s better


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[Tiha]

What I would do, to rule it out, pull the vacuum pump again, rotate the motor to that spot, pull the pump, and turn the motor over until the single mark is up, put the gear in, and bolt the pump back up and see if it’s better


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I will add it to my todo list.

Any idea what diameter the cam gear is? Or the drive ratio?

If the pump to cam is 2:1 then turning the engine over the marks will probably line up but a different mark will show on the cam gear.

 

[6.0 Tech]

It 2:1. Pump gear is the same size as crank gear. So you’ll need to turn the motor over 360 degrees to line up the correct marks. But pull the pump out with it at the incorrect marks so that the pump is in the right spot, then turn the motor over. And actually, you won’t even have to pull the pump, line up the marks where you were, then pull the pump gear, turn the motor over, and then reinstall the pump gear in the correct spot. Much easier than pulling the pump out again


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[Tiha]

I had some time yesterday. So I did verify that the pump on the 2014 and 2016 are the same. So I swapped them.

No change. The 2014 pump is currently on the 2016 running and the 2016 pump is on the 2014 with no change in rail pressure.

Hopefully my VCV shows up today. If that doesn't fix it I think I am back to a bad CP4 out of the box.

 

[Tiha]

New vcv. No change.

I think I am at the point of another cp4 or pcm?

Cp4 is stupid. It turns it should pump. Even if it is pumping air. And if it was just air I should see a blip on my rail pressure right?
Yet nothing.

So I thought, what if it isn't spinning at all.
Since I am headed towards pulling it out.
Got the vacuum cover off. Verified timing is correct. Shot a video. Pump is spinning.

I'll let it stew a couple days but I will probably warranty out this cp4. Unless someone can point me a different direction.

 

[6.0 Tech]

New vcv. No change.

I think I am at the point of another cp4 or pcm?

Cp4 is stupid. It turns it should pump. Even if it is pumping air. And if it was just air I should see a blip on my rail pressure right?
Yet nothing.

So I thought, what if it isn't spinning at all.
Since I am headed towards pulling it out.
Got the vacuum cover off. Verified timing is correct. Shot a video. Pump is spinning.

I'll let it stew a couple days but I will probably warranty out this cp4. Unless someone can point me a different direction.



View attachment 187186

So, first off, the timing is not correct. You are 180 degrees off from how you had originally set the timing. The pump is in the same visual spot, but possibly incorrect inside. Turn the motor over to where you originally set the timing, remove the gear, turn the motor over to where it is now, and then reinstall the gear. Once again, I am not sure this is your problem, as I have never installed one incorrectly. However, it is not right, so do it right. If that fixes it, great, if not, then continue with diag.

Another thing, how long has this thing run since you have done the work? It may still have air in it.

But fix the ****ing pump timing before anything else, it will take 5 damn minutes for it to be correct instead of hmmming and hawing about what could be the issue. There is something not right, for sure, 100%, fix that and then retest. Shit, pulling the gear off, you don’t even have to crack the system at all…


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[Tiha]

So, first off, the timing is not correct. You are 180 degrees off from how you had originally set the timing. The pump is in the same visual spot, but possibly incorrect inside. Turn the motor over to where you originally set the timing, remove the gear, turn the motor over to where it is now, and then reinstall the gear. Once again, I am not sure this is your problem, as I have never installed one incorrectly. However, it is not right, so do it right. If that fixes it, great, if not, then continue with diag.

Another thing, how long has this thing run since you have done the work? It may still have air in it.

But fix the ****ing pump timing before anything else, it will take 5 damn minutes for it to be correct instead of hmmming and hawing about what could be the issue. There is something not right, for sure, 100%, fix that and then retest. Shit, pulling the gear off, you don’t even have to crack the system at all…


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I can swap it, I got time

keyway at 12 o'clock is keyway at 12 o'clock.

If piston one is tdc with keyway at 12 oclock then piston is at tdc everytime keyway is at 12 o'clock

Which leads me to the question I came to ask. How are these pumps valved? I need to find a breakdown.

If this was a cylinder in a 4 stroke engine then it would have 2 tdcs. One compression and one exhaust.

If a cylinder has a bad intake or exhaust valve you get zero compression.

What do these pumps use for inlet and exhaust valves?
Reed valves? Check balls? Then every tdc would be a compression stroke.
 

 

[Tiha]

I am glad you had me swap it. At least now I know it is right.

Did not make a difference. I just got a dead pump out of the box apparently.

I found a 7/8 deep socket fits the shaft and keyway just right to turn the pump.

Getting that last half tooth was tough but I was also looking at it in a mirror so that made it worse.

Monday I will see how the warranty process is going to go.

 

[Tiha]

I found a halfway decent diagram of the CP4.

Just for kicks, because at this point the warranty process is started, but I would imagine I have a problem in what they are calling the adjuster?

I suppose it could be a one way check ball, or even the internal pressure relief.

Kind of think if it was a check ball I would still see some kind of pressure increase in the rail? So leaning towards what they call the adjuster.

I have no idea if I will ever get to find out, but I am gonna ask.