FFD Rail System

Hotrodtractor

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Well - I think the HEUI white papers I've collected were on a hard drive that died a few years ago..... I can't seem to locate them anywhere so that must have been where they were. This is also why I now run a RAID configuration and have a cloud backup..... lol

If someone were so inclined to do some digging - they would find that a lot of high speed automotive hydraulic control research was done by a small company in Colorado by the name of Sturman Industries. If you dig deep enough you will find that they were consultants for Cat during the initial HEUI system development and there are patents issued to both companies. In fact there was a lawsuit over some patent rights. Digging through all of that and about 20 plus years of internet...... you'll find the same white papers I did.
 

ja_cain

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Not sure I want to pay the $30 for this one. Trying to get my brother to get a copy of this for me since he does research for a fuels/lubes additive company.
ae445a8f5150cb85e1ae299c35a0f019.jpg


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andharri

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Well - I think the HEUI white papers I've collected were on a hard drive that died a few years ago..... I can't seem to locate them anywhere so that must have been where they were. This is also why I now run a RAID configuration and have a cloud backup..... lol

If someone were so inclined to do some digging - they would find that a lot of high speed automotive hydraulic control research was done by a small company in Colorado by the name of Sturman Industries. If you dig deep enough you will find that they were consultants for Cat during the initial HEUI system development and there are patents issued to both companies. In fact there was a lawsuit over some patent rights. Digging through all of that and about 20 plus years of internet...... you'll find the same white papers I did.

Well I did about 2 hours worth of digging. No doubt did not cover everything but did manage to find a few interesting pieces of information.

The first patent I came across was US5806494A which describes the integrated oil rail system and injector system. In the second paragraph of the Background Art section it compares and contrasts a system with unincorporated oil supply lines to the incorporated oil rail system. It states, "One disadvantage of the seperate connection passages is that some pressure loss inevitably occurs and in some instances can require a higher oil rail pressure to compensate in order to ensure injector performance." It goes on to say that connection passages are difficult to manufacture and shape. This is what they indicate led to the original design of the oil rail.

Another, earlier, patent that states similarly is Patent US5392749A.

Pressure waves generated during operation are discussed in two patents I found. The first (US5168855A), discusses the minimization of the Helmholtz Resonance effect (pressure waves) using a check valve device on each oil rail (manifold) supply line. My best guess would be these are the check valves that are found in the HPOP fittings, and would prevent spikes in pressure from travelling back to the pump.

The most intriguing patent that had some implications for pressure wave and resonance reduction was patent US5297523A. This patent described the shaping of the oil passages in the head, from the oil rail to the injector, as a means of providing a restriction to the system to minimize pressure variation and avoid structural failures in the head. It states these passages have been, "sized primarily to reduce the cylinder head stress levels in the vicinity of [the injector] without degrading the injection performance." Notably, in the Industrial Applicability section it goes on to state the physical necessity of the oil rail as a means to store injection energy through the bulk modulus (compressibility) of the oil. As this is a function of Volume, the larger the oil rail and the more oil it will hold the more energy it can store for injection events. It states that, "the peak torque condition generally requires the highest actuating fluid flow." Therefore, increasing oil flow (actuating fluid) is necessary for higher output applications.

This seems to support some other members and my arguments that reduction of the oil rail volume, with subsequent increased restriction to flow, would be detrimental to performance.



To find any of the patents listed in this post use the web address:

https://patents.google.com/patent/USXXXXXXXX/en

Substitute the XXXXXXXX for the patent number (eg. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5392749A/en)

There are a number of other highly interesting patents that I found that do not necessarily relate to this discussion (mostly different injector designs), but can be found by reading through the Patent Citations section at the bottom of the listed patents.
 

ja_cain

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Andharri, awesome work digging that up. I had totally forgotten about the Google Patent search. I use to use that all the time. By chance did you use the term HEUI or Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection when you searched? I came up empty when I searched on the US patents site using those terms. It's interesting that they mention using oil with anti-foaming agents a couple or few times in the technical paper Cobra posted. Exacerbation of aeration would be my biggest gripe with the large volume oil rail.

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andharri

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Andharri, awesome work digging that up. I had totally forgotten about the Google Patent search. I use to use that all the time. By chance did you use the term HEUI or Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection when you searched? I came up empty when I searched on the US patents site using those terms. It's interesting that they mention using oil with anti-foaming agents a couple or few times in the technical paper Cobra posted. Exacerbation of aeration would be my biggest gripe with the large volume oil rail.

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I started with a search for Sturman Industries on Google and that led me to the Caterpillar lawsuit and a few patents. With those patents I just used the cited patents listed and branched out pretty rapidly.

You might find patent US5454359A to be interesting. Navistar engineers developed a continuous deaeration device for the 7.3l It consisted of a tube that extended from the oil passages into the oil rail. That way the oil that fed the injectors came from the top of the oil rail. Any air bubbles in the system were therefore sucked from the top of the rail (where they would accumulate) through the injector and expelled. The benefits listed were less cranking time to start and "problems associated with entrapped air in the high pressure rails disappear as well."

Of course this would only work for non-emulsified air bubbles, such as after draining the HPO system and refilling.
 
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ja_cain

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I started with a search for Sturman Industries on Google and that led me to the Caterpillar lawsuit and a few patents. With those patents I just used the cited patents listed and branched out pretty rapidly.

You might find patent US5454359A to be interesting. Navistar engineers developed a continuous deaeration device for the 7.3l It consisted of a tube that extended from the oil passages into the oil rail. That way the oil that fed the injectors came from the top of the oil rail. Any air bubbles in the system were therefore sucked from the top of the rail (where they would accumulate) through the injector and expelled. The benefits listed were less cranking time to start and "problems associated with entrapped air in the high pressure rails disappear as well."

Of course this would only work for non-emulsified air bubbles, such as after draining the HPO system and refilling.
Good stuff. I saw the lawsuit link, but didn't check them out as I didn't have the time. That makes sense they would reference the parents in the lawsuit. Good stuff. I'll definitely check out that patent that talks about the deaeration method. This might be particularly useful on some of the flow rigs I am designing/building.

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jbolen323

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Actually, as argued earlier in this thread part of this discussion is based around whether the FFD rails would actually deliver more oil to the injector or result in a sustained ICP reading without delivering more oil. In the former situation a problem is solved, in the later the problem is masked.

Measuring ICP alone would not answer the question of whether these rail inserts solve the problem or mask it. The HP/TQ numbers (how well the injectors are functioning) in combination with the measured ICP are required in order to arrive at a definitive answer.

I think this is generally understood by you and others, but it just didn't come through that way in your post and I thought I would clarify.


Well im putting my personal truck on the dyno for the first time in the morning. Getting base number HP numbers and doing a data log on ICP.

3.0 / 3.6 / 4.2 PW tunes will be tested


*also will be doing the dyno on 238/80 and s364.5 to finish up that data and move that truck into a s366 & s369 again on the 238s compared to 205
 

ja_cain

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Well im putting my personal truck on the dyno for the first time in the morning. Getting base number HP numbers and doing a data log on ICP.

3.0 / 3.6 / 4.2 PW tunes will be tested


*also will be doing the dyno on 238/80 and s364.5 to finish up that data and move that truck into a s366 & s369 again on the 238s compared to 205

Looking forward to everything. I do R&D in a different type of industry, but am intimately familiar with using the correct instrumentation to get a hold on what's happening in a system. If you've never seen it, you should check out Gale Bank's "Killing the Duramax" series on YouTube. It is a pretty comprehensive overview of engine monitoring. His instrumentation package looks pretty sweet. Looks like he is going to be able to find all of the significant failure modes in this series. I really like the pressure transducers used to monitor cylinder pressure. I have always wanted to implement something like this via the glowplugs. Anyway, good luck with everything!
 

lincolnlocker

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You da ya man
Nah
Since my request has been fulfilled - I shall oblige. Thank you - Tamisha was ecstatic.

This whole debate can be boiled quite succinctly down into two issues:

1) Does this thing actually improve performance? Cass said he has evidence to support that it does with improvement in several test trucks as well as years of experience with these trucks. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt - its no secret that we've known each other for years and consider each other friends. I eagerly await the presentation of said evidence with the rest of you.

2) How does it work? I don't have a a concrete answer on that - but I do have theories which I will outline in a moment. First I'll post a paraphrase of what I told Cass "I know for a fact its not that bull**** you posted on the FB ad" ..... Maybe that isn't actually paraphrasing.... LOL

Theory 1: Firstly - we need to dispel a myth that I have seen repeated in this thread numerous times. Engine oil is compressible. That is a FACT. This is especially true when it comes to aerated oil which is pretty much the only thing that exists in a 7.3L Powerstroke. These rails take up a known volume of the factory "reservoir" giving less volume to be compressed. This could be a method of stabilizing the pressure.

Theory 2: This would be my front runner theory, but its more of an educated guess. These inserts actually dampen the pressure waves that are taking place within the oil rail. Fluid harmonics in a transient flow like this are a PITA. By inserting this device into the oil rail its giving a new surface for the pressure waves mostly being generated by the starting and stopping of oil flow at each individual injector a new surface to bounce off of and dissipate.

Theory 3: I don't have one.... but that doesn't mean there isn't yet another undiscovered mode where this device could improve the rails. If you have theory where this might work - please share.

In any case - if the tech performs as advertised regardless of the the actual physics behind the why it works - that might be what truly matters. While the fluid mechanics of the initial theory that lead FFD down the path to develop this might be fundamentally flawed, it is quite possible that they have stumbled onto something unique and quite worthy of the small price they are asking (compared to anything else for these engines). I think we often forget that sometimes some great things are discovered entirely by accident. Corn Flakes, Teflon, Post-It Notes (the adhesive), silly putty, etc.... were all things created in the pursuit of something else.

That is my take on this. Does it work? Maybe. How does it work? Not as its advertised currently.
No problem. I think i have donated for the past few years.. this just worked out in everyone's favor to hear your input. Lol.

live life full throttle
 

ja_cain

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NahNo problem. I think i have donated for the past few years.. this just worked out in everyone's favor to hear your input. Lol.

live life full throttle
That's awesome! I didn't actually read that response from Jason because I thought this thread was kind of silly and I've read every old post of his on this system, but the aeration thing was exactly what I brought up. Lol!!!!

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Swaan

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This all still sounds like a bunch of "gee well maybe this and that" with out no concrete data I guess we will never know.

I know one thing, I'm not rushing out to buy this product anytime soon. );
 

cjfarm111

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I agree Swaan. I’m no genius so some hard evidence is what it would take to get my money on a purchase. I need proof. My gut says no huge improvement but then again I’m no fluid dynamic expert either
 

Swaan

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Like the ol saying goes, "There's no replacement for displacement ". Holds true for high pressure oil pumps and or systems in general. .
 

jbolen323

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Well it’s been a month guys! I needs some dyno sheets!

Well we dynoed last week before we took off to Rudys Season Closer,

Droped rail pressure pretty hard at a 3.0 tune, im working on getting them installed this week and dyno again early next week.

Only made roughly 520hp *see sig for specs*


so if it makes more power next week in the same tune, we know that something is working.
 

Swaan

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That's great , glad you can do some testing.
Too bad you couldn't do it all on the same dyno in the same day. As we all know air quality and altitude play huge roles in numbers. Looking forward to see some results.
 

powerlifter405

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I still chat with Charles on occasion. Its been a while I should give him a shout....

I'm not sure that Dave (Golfer) is in it at all anymore since he no longer owns Swamps Diesel.

I have no idea what Joey or Gary are doing these days.

I still chat with Charles on occasion. Its been a while I should give him a shout....

I'm not sure that Dave (Golfer) is in it at all anymore since he no longer owns Swamps Diesel.

I have no idea what Joey or Gary are doing these days.

Oh wow. I didnt know dave sold swamps! Hey! You're still alive too!!


Yep. Its a plug of sorts.

live life full throttle

:whs:
Off topic but when did Dave sell Swamps? Backstory??
 

superpsd

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Not sure about Dave but Johnathan looks like he opened a new buisness focused on PCM repair/flashing and other electronics.
 

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