Golf ball pistons

6.0 Tech · Wednesday at 9:07 PM

BrewTown said:
If you want a deep dive check out the Polyquad Cylinder Head design. David Vizard was one designer of it. The idea is to create swirl in cylinder for better mixture and distribution.
Don't get hung up thinking the air in a cylinder is just hanging out. There's a lot happening at a high rate of speed! The more you can control the path the air flows, and eliminate low movement areas, the better the combustion event, and better the flame front travels. I'm not qualified to go too deep on it, but those are some surface principals.

I’ll definitely look into that. I’ve watched some of his stuff on YouTube, and he’s much much smarter than me when it comes to this stuff.

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BrewTown · 2024-09-26T10:02:11-0400

Big Bore said:
Yea, I still don't see how you got there regarding my comments since I never advocated against any of those things. I believe the correct term is straw man. My view was there is no economic benefit for me to use their burdensomely expensive unproven product, and there are much more economical alternatives to get the alleged results. Again, how is any of that communism? I'll help you out, it's not.

Okay. I'm not sure why you are saying Strawman, but I'm probably overlooking what you were thinking.
For the record, I never tried to attack or discredit anyone, I was simply giving my take. If you are an individual or company that spends big sums of money to create something, only to get no payback, that's what I was referring to as communism. Now it could be a shit idea or poor quality and the lack of profit is justified, but everything in a free market is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I'm not saying this is literal communism, just not profiting for investment and good products resembles communism.

Big Bore said:
I had no idea they were that much, and yes, there should be a LOT of data for something that expensive, like exactly what you're saying, before and after with same same everything and some dyno charts, otherwise their brochure is just a bunch of fluff to get people to overpay for snake oil. if a set of pistons is anywhere near $4k, I'm out cause that's not even close to being economical for any alleged or perceived gain. I could spray water and a couple other things for a lot less to lower egt's with money left over for some more performance. Hell, thats almost the cost of a good short block.

I agree with everything you say here except the spray water remark. They are not saying lower EGTs are the only benefit. That's one, but also fuel economy, cleaner oil (more complete combustion with less soot in the oil), cleaner emissions, quieter and more HP and TQ. Adding water or water meth on pulls isn't getting you all of that so it really isn't a replacement. However, that's their claims and not independently proven so maybe this point is moot.
Any way we look at it, we'd all like to see an A to B test, same engine, same weather.

Just in case anyone hasn't, their website has some testing done with mining equipment. If it's true what they say, it works. Is it true is the question.

6.0 Tech · 2024-09-26T15:37:00-0400

BrewTown said:
Okay. I'm not sure why you are saying Strawman, but I'm probably overlooking what you were thinking.
For the record, I never tried to attack or discredit anyone, I was simply giving my take. If you are an individual or company that spends big sums of money to create something, only to get no payback, that's what I was referring to as communism. Now it could be a shit idea or poor quality and the lack of profit is justified, but everything in a free market is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I'm not saying this is literal communism, just not profiting for investment and good products resembles communism.

I agree with everything you say here except the spray water remark. They are not saying lower EGTs are the only benefit. That's one, but also fuel economy, cleaner oil (more complete combustion with less soot in the oil), cleaner emissions, quieter and more HP and TQ. Adding water or water meth on pulls isn't getting you all of that so it really isn't a replacement. However, that's their claims and not independently proven so maybe this point is moot.
Any way we look at it, we'd all like to see an A to B test, same engine, same weather.

Just in case anyone hasn't, their website has some testing done with mining equipment. If it's true what they say, it works. Is it true is the question.

So in doing some reading on their website, i feel it reiterates the point of an a and b engine, everything the same, aside from pistons. I’m wondering if x claim was made after testing on a wore the f out motor, that needed a rebuild, and now all of the sudden with their pistons it’s x amount cleaner, etc, etc. Not many people throw a set of pistons in an engine just to do it, and therein lies the problem. I get they’ve got their test trucks and whatnot, but with the cost of yanking an engine, installing a set of pistons, and reinstalling and then testing, it tough on a company to do. For example, my boss says that an employee at $30 an hour, really costs around $100, once you factor in insurance, and all that other shit. So a typical rebuild book time on a powerstroke is around 40 hours, most guys can get it done quicker, but even if you figure 25ish hours, plus around $1000 for gaskets, fluids, misc stuff, and then the cost of the pistons, which obviously isn’t costing them 3-4K, but you’re talking all in probably around 5-6k. That’s a lot for a perfectly fresh engine that doesn’t really need anything. But sometimes it is the cost of doing business, I get that. An engine dyno would make it a lot easier, but it seemed their videos were mostly trucks on the dyno.

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BrewTown · 2024-09-26T16:50:40-0400

6.0 Tech said:
So in doing some reading on their website, i feel it reiterates the point of an a and b engine, everything the same, aside from pistons. I’m wondering if x claim was made after testing on a wore the f out motor, that needed a rebuild, and now all of the sudden with their pistons it’s x amount cleaner, etc, etc. Not many people throw a set of pistons in an engine just to do it, and therein lies the problem. I get they’ve got their test trucks and whatnot, but with the cost of yanking an engine, installing a set of pistons, and reinstalling and then testing, it tough on a company to do. For example, my boss says that an employee at $30 an hour, really costs around $100, once you factor in insurance, and all that other shit. So a typical rebuild book time on a powerstroke is around 40 hours, most guys can get it done quicker, but even if you figure 25ish hours, plus around $1000 for gaskets, fluids, misc stuff, and then the cost of the pistons, which obviously isn’t costing them 3-4K, but you’re talking all in probably around 5-6k. That’s a lot for a perfectly fresh engine that doesn’t really need anything. But sometimes it is the cost of doing business, I get that. An engine dyno would make it a lot easier, but it seemed their videos were mostly trucks on the dyno.

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I guess I should revisit the site. I thought they had 2 machines, same mine, that they rebuilt the engines at the same time. Only difference was the pistons and any variable like how close they held tolerance, but essentially the same. I thought after something like 12k? hours run time, typically engines were plain wore out. When they tested stock piston version and SOA version, the stock was again wore out at 12k, but they said the SOA version had a lot of life yet. I thought fuel consumption, emissions and wear were all reduced. I'm reaching from memory here, maybe I can find the write up and post a link?
If I remember right, data is on one site and you can buy the pistons on another. Like SOA Pistons and SOA Engineering or something like that.

Okay, I looked for that link. This article covers a few, but I didn't see the straight mining write up. Either my memory isn't there, or this is it...

Can These Pistons Stop Emissions In Diesel Engines Moving Forward?

SOA pioneers new piston treatment to combat stringent emissions standards by providing better performance and fuel mileage.

www.dieselarmy.com

6.0 Tech · 2024-09-26T21:54:45-0400

BrewTown said:
I guess I should revisit the site. I thought they had 2 machines, same mine, that they rebuilt the engines at the same time. Only difference was the pistons and any variable like how close they held tolerance, but essentially the same. I thought after something like 12k? hours run time, typically engines were plain wore out. When they tested stock piston version and SOA version, the stock was again wore out at 12k, but they said the SOA version had a lot of life yet. I thought fuel consumption, emissions and wear were all reduced. I'm reaching from memory here, maybe I can find the write up and post a link?
If I remember right, data is on one site and you can buy the pistons on another. Like SOA Pistons and SOA Engineering or something like that.

Okay, I looked for that link. This article covers a few, but I didn't see the straight mining write up. Either my memory isn't there, or this is it...

Can These Pistons Stop Emissions In Diesel Engines Moving Forward?

SOA pioneers new piston treatment to combat stringent emissions standards by providing better performance and fuel mileage.

www.dieselarmy.com

Ok, I must’ve missed the part on their website about 2 engines at the same time. I saw the 13000 hour number and the 18000 hour number, and assumed I guess.

However, in what you posted, their numbers on the 7.3 truck are not impressive. It also doesn’t have before and after testing with it. We’ve got a Dually at the shop with almost 600k on the original motor making 570 on the same injectors, stock cam, and a similarly sized turbo to the 38r, which is what I’m guessing they used in that test, as they said “Garrett” turbo. Granted, technology has come a long way in even the past 5 years, and we’ve never hooked our 5 gas machine to the Dually to see what it does, but I believe we’re making closer to 1500 lb/ft and they’re at 1300. Now is this in the tune to be cleaner on the sniffer? Just a technology jump? Pistons? I don’t know. However I can tell you, on my 6.0, I have an emissions tune that limits fueling for the opacity test and sets the rev limiter, as that’s all we test in Arizona, and it passes at 7ish percent opacity on a neutral rev with 330/150s. Can also say that in testing our turbos with multiple tuners with the 5 gas on, a tune that passes emissions, and dynos well, drives like garbage. One that may not dyno quite as well, and maybe be 15-20% over stock emissions (carb allows 10% to certify) drives great.

Again, this is a good conversation to actually have something we’re talking about on the forum, and I’m also not trying to piss in anyone’s cheerios or something.

But I do feel that it reiterates the point of a couple of shops need to build 2 identical engines and test the pistons. Hell, gale the god banks himself you’d think would be jumping on this if it is as emissions friendly as it’s claimed.

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Powerstroke Cowboy · 2024-09-27T08:05:47-0400

PDT1081 said:
Are you aware of what that software costs? Along with the training and education required to make it work correctly?

No, I don't. But, just because your software is expensive and your training level is as well the price should be 3k for dimples on a piston. Without true real world testing and comparisons.

They aren't the only ones selling dimpled pistons for diesels. There is another group doing it as well. I believe theirs are about half price of SOA pistons.

If they truly are as good as claimed, I would try a set.

Powerstroke Cowboy · 2024-09-27T08:09:27-0400

Here's some of the engine mods to the 7.3 that's been tested with SOA pistons. Not all the supporting mods are listed. Like exhaust, intake, CAC pipes, I don't now about the CAC itself.

Copy and pasted.

"In addition to installing SOA-modified pistons, Anderson used a mild camshaft, and a single Garrett T4 turbocharger with a turbine speed sensor and Turbosmart HyperGate45 wastegate. He also upgraded the injectors from 120cc to 238cc, single-shot, 80%-over nozzles. The exhaust manifolds and turbine housings were modified and coated with a thermal barrier and heat dispersants from SOA as well."

More claims.

"Extensive testing indicates that on average, an F-250 Ford Super Duty typically gets a combined fuel consumption (both street and highway) of 13 mpg. Anderson’s truck achieved 22-24 mpg at freeway speeds. A Ford F-350, also fitted with SOA components and coatings, reported as much as 24 mpg or even more.""

Link to the article.