Guess the issue!?

[tyler886]

I'd love to hear BAH's opinion on stitch welding a 6.0 cylinder head! LOL

One of the customers 6.0 heads I did got .007 taken off, and a stitch weld above the injector cup. I suspose according to BAH's theory, the truck should have blown up 7.84 times already in the past 20k miles.

FWIW, customer says its never run better since the head job, studs and deletes.

-Tyler

 

[Dantheman]

Never seen too much off the head before.

 

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

I'd love to hear BAH's opinion on stitch welding a 6.0 cylinder head! LOL

One of the customers 6.0 heads I did got .007 taken off, and a stitch weld above the injector cup. I suspose according to BAH's theory, the truck should have blown up 7.84 times already in the past 20k miles.

FWIW, customer says its never run better since the head job, studs and deletes.

-Tyler

Did you sign up for this forum just so you could be a nut swinger like the rest of these clowns?

Never ran better? Of course it never ran better. I'm going to loosely assume that it needed head gaskets or an EGR cooler so there's not much you could do at any point to make things worse. I say loosely assume due to the fact that most times guys just wing parts at something until the problem goes away.

As for stitch welding a cylinder head that's readily available, and nowhere near rare or irreplaceable - its your dick and your soap. You can wash it as fast as you like. There's really no point in leaving yourself in a liable position by fixing something like that. If its what the customer wants, then hey, let er have it. At the same time the cost of repair versus replace has to be evaluated and the best possible solution to the customer offered both from a financial and reliability or longevity standpoint. Youve got the head off, checked for cracks, flatness, washed it, welded it, put new cups in it, done a valve grind, and replaced any worn parts. And you're still left with a compromised casting - at likely well more than half the cost of a replacement head.

Truth be told, this thread has been going on for quite some time now, and the guy that runs the shop still does not have an answer as to what is wrong with the truck or why it happened, thus making my posts along with all others in this thread moot. Customer isn't starting to wonder about his choice of mechanic?

"I'm not charging him if I can't fix it". Okay. Fine. But the moment you went to an outside source to find information tells me along with all the other people in here you are willing to do what ever it takes to band-aid up this piece of **** long enough to get it past your parking lot and get paid.

Next time there's a failure, it won't be your fault because "it's a race application" or some other horse **** reason you won't warranty it.

But hey. You guys don't need even a shop manual to fix this stuff. You have the Internet. "a guy I know told me this would work" is not an acceptable repair strategy. Neither is "i found it on the Internet".

Here's the simplest rule for fixing something. If this engine was in an ambulance and I was counting on it to save my life - would I repair it like this? (spare me the EGR valve and cooler failure ****, we all know they fail but that is not the point I am trying to make). Would you like to be responsible for a failure that cost someone their life? Half assed and shoddy workmanship will always be why mechanics are not held to the same esteem as doctors and the like. The human body has remained relatively unchanged since nearly it's inception. Vehicles change all the time. Most folks will let nearly anyone work on their car. But would you go to "Joe's doctoring service and tire centre"? Sometimes the public's view of our profession is shaped by situations like this. Back to asking a public forum for repair information on a CUSTOMER vehicle. Unprofessional, and provides the public that mechanics as a whole are willing to undertake projects that they aren't able to repair in a timely fashion.

You guys continue doing whatever the **** you want. Don't let fear, experience, common sense, or the facts get in your way or slow any of you down. Keep on reaching for that rainbow.

 

[tensixniner]

A dial indicator with magnetic base for protrusion.

And i took a micrometer to them and they were all identical length no matter where i measured from

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

How did you find top dead center when you were measuring protrusion?

How clean was the deck surface? Did you use a straight edge when you checked the deck flatness?

 

[tyler886]

Did you sign up for this forum just so you could be a nut swinger like the rest of these clowns?

Never ran better? Of course it never ran better. I'm going to loosely assume that it needed head gaskets or an EGR cooler so there's not much you could do at any point to make things worse. I say loosely assume due to the fact that most times guys just wing parts at something until the problem goes away.

No, I signed up for this forum since I couldnt stand the same repetitiveness on another PSD forum.

As for stitch welding a cylinder head that's readily available, and nowhere near rare or irreplaceable - its your dick and your soap. You can wash it as fast as you like. There's really no point in leaving yourself in a liable position by fixing something like that. If its what the customer wants, then hey, let er have it. At the same time the cost of repair versus replace has to be evaluated and the best possible solution to the customer offered both from a financial and reliability or longevity standpoint. Youve got the head off, checked for cracks, flatness, washed it, welded it, put new cups in it, done a valve grind, and replaced any worn parts. And you're still left with a compromised casting - at likely well more than half the cost of a replacement head.

Being an X dealership technician myself, I know you dont have to deal with customers or clientele. You write your laundry list of repairs on an RO and let the SA deal with selling it. If it sells, it sells. If not grab another RO and try again. In the independent field, we explain and weigh options to the customer, and give our opinions on whats the best financial move. That being said, the customer always gets what they want, even if it may not be cost effective in the long run or a financially smart move. Afterall, they're the ones paying. All I can do is explain to the customer their options, and let them make the decision from there. The customer decided he wanted to gamble on the $300-400 savings on the new cylinder head versus machining the original. Some customers are exactly that, customers. I'll give them options and they'll say "I come here because I dont know what Im doing and want it done right. Whatever it costs to do it correctly, do it."

Its funny to see how brainwashed longtime dealer techs get though. Cant machine heads, cant use a roloc, cant use a non-oem part LOL

-Tyler

 

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

A: I was also a service advisor as well as a diesel/truck tech.
B: Most of the dealers I have worked at I have had direct contact with the customer.
C: Do you know what roughness average is? What RA is required for an MLS head gasket, and what RA you get when using a roloc disc?

Roloc discs create leak paths, plain and simple.

Saving a customer 3 or 4 hundred bucks vs doing the job again on my dime is not worth it in my opinion. That 3-400 bucks won't even cover the cost of the soft parts and fluids should you have to redo the job.

 

[MorganY]

A: I was also a service advisor.
B: Most of the dealers I have worked at I have had direct contact with the customer.
C: Do you know what roughness average is? What RA is required for an MLS head gasket, and what RA you get

You disapprove of us "nut-swingers" so what are you still doing on this forum?

sorry for the de-rail OP

 

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

You disapprove of us "nut-swingers" so what are you still doing on this forum?

sorry for the de-rail OP

Shh. Grown ups are talking.

 

[MorganY]

:morons:

 

[Mdub707]

Did you sign up for this forum just so you could be a nut swinger like the rest of these clowns?

Never ran better? Of course it never ran better. I'm going to loosely assume that it needed head gaskets or an EGR cooler so there's not much you could do at any point to make things worse. I say loosely assume due to the fact that most times guys just wing parts at something until the problem goes away.

As for stitch welding a cylinder head that's readily available, and nowhere near rare or irreplaceable - its your dick and your soap. You can wash it as fast as you like. There's really no point in leaving yourself in a liable position by fixing something like that. If its what the customer wants, then hey, let er have it. At the same time the cost of repair versus replace has to be evaluated and the best possible solution to the customer offered both from a financial and reliability or longevity standpoint. Youve got the head off, checked for cracks, flatness, washed it, welded it, put new cups in it, done a valve grind, and replaced any worn parts. And you're still left with a compromised casting - at likely well more than half the cost of a replacement head.

Truth be told, this thread has been going on for quite some time now, and the guy that runs the shop still does not have an answer as to what is wrong with the truck or why it happened, thus making my posts along with all others in this thread moot. Customer isn't starting to wonder about his choice of mechanic?

"I'm not charging him if I can't fix it". Okay. Fine. But the moment you went to an outside source to find information tells me along with all the other people in here you are willing to do what ever it takes to band-aid up this piece of **** long enough to get it past your parking lot and get paid.

Next time there's a failure, it won't be your fault because "it's a race application" or some other horse **** reason you won't warranty it.

But hey. You guys don't need even a shop manual to fix this stuff. You have the Internet. "a guy I know told me this would work" is not an acceptable repair strategy. Neither is "i found it on the Internet".

Here's the simplest rule for fixing something. If this engine was in an ambulance and I was counting on it to save my life - would I repair it like this? (spare me the EGR valve and cooler failure ****, we all know they fail but that is not the point I am trying to make). Would you like to be responsible for a failure that cost someone their life? Half assed and shoddy workmanship will always be why mechanics are not held to the same esteem as doctors and the like. The human body has remained relatively unchanged since nearly it's inception. Vehicles change all the time. Most folks will let nearly anyone work on their car. But would you go to "Joe's doctoring service and tire centre"? Sometimes the public's view of our profession is shaped by situations like this. Back to asking a public forum for repair information on a CUSTOMER vehicle. Unprofessional, and provides the public that mechanics as a whole are willing to undertake projects that they aren't able to repair in a timely fashion.

I'm on forums figuring stuff out for myself because the morons working at the 6 different Ford dealerships I went to, couldn't diagnose a 6.0 to save their lives. It's sad when I can learn more about my truck on the internet than the "master diesel technician" trained by Ford knew.... The best day of owning my truck was the day it ran out of warranty and I never stepped foot back into a Ford service center. It actually swayed me from buying a new 6.7 powerstroke. I opted to keep my 6.0 and work on it myself just to avoid the frustration of having to deal with the Ford service technicians. Seriously.

 

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

And hey, that's cool and I can respect that.

Things are a lot different in the Canadian dealer network as well as the Canadian automotive industry.

To be a licensed mechanic in Ontario a minimum of 9000 hours of apprenticeship is required along with three levels of trade school.

Also, in the dealer network here you are responsible for your work. You spend hours and hours on something and don't fix it (this is warranty i am talking about here) you don't get paid for it. It comes back because you didn't fix it right? You fix it for free. (Not sure in the states but here most of the dealer techs are flat rate or piece work.)

That being said - if you are flat rate and there's no accountability or work ownership there are techs that just churn out as much work as they can, right or not.

I have found through my travels on the interwebs that the majority of dissatisfaction with dealer diesel techs stems from the US.

When you work on something wouldn't you rather have a potential customer looking at a current customers truck and say "wow! That looks great! Who fixed that" over "holy ****, who's the hack job butcher that pieced that together?"

Good, cheap, fast. Pick two.

 

[tyler886]

A: I was also a service advisor as well as a diesel/truck tech.
Couldnt beat the clock to make a living in the shop?
B: Most of the dealers I have worked at I have had direct contact with the customer.
As you said, MOST, not all.
C: Do you know what roughness average is? What RA is required for an MLS head gasket, and what RA you get when using a roloc disc?
Are you trying to quiz me? Do I get a cookie if I answer correctly? 20-30RA is required for MLS headgasets.
Roloc discs create leak paths, plain and simple.
Just because roloc discs CAN cause damage, doesnt mean they will. I start cleaning the mating surfaces with the green colored bristle discs, then continue with a fine roloc disc. As with anything, failure 9/10 usually occurs in operator error.
Saving a customer 3 or 4 hundred bucks vs doing the job again on my dime is not worth it in my opinion. That 3-400 bucks won't even cover the cost of the soft parts and fluids should you have to redo the job.

The job wouldnt be done on my dime again. As I explained earlier, I told the customer his options and he chose. He is also fully aware of the possible outcomes of the path chosen and was comfortable with it. Im not a gambling man, he is.

 

[kyle43335]

Did you sign up for this forum just so you could be a nut swinger like the rest of these clowns?

Never ran better? Of course it never ran better. I'm going to loosely assume that it needed head gaskets or an EGR cooler so there's not much you could do at any point to make things worse. I say loosely assume due to the fact that most times guys just wing parts at something until the problem goes away.

As for stitch welding a cylinder head that's readily available, and nowhere near rare or irreplaceable - its your dick and your soap. You can wash it as fast as you like. There's really no point in leaving yourself in a liable position by fixing something like that. If its what the customer wants, then hey, let er have it. At the same time the cost of repair versus replace has to be evaluated and the best possible solution to the customer offered both from a financial and reliability or longevity standpoint. Youve got the head off, checked for cracks, flatness, washed it, welded it, put new cups in it, done a valve grind, and replaced any worn parts. And you're still left with a compromised casting - at likely well more than half the cost of a replacement head.

Truth be told, this thread has been going on for quite some time now, and the guy that runs the shop still does not have an answer as to what is wrong with the truck or why it happened, thus making my posts along with all others in this thread moot. Customer isn't starting to wonder about his choice of mechanic?

"I'm not charging him if I can't fix it". Okay. Fine. But the moment you went to an outside source to find information tells me along with all the other people in here you are willing to do what ever it takes to band-aid up this piece of **** long enough to get it past your parking lot and get paid.

Next time there's a failure, it won't be your fault because "it's a race application" or some other horse **** reason you won't warranty it.

But hey. You guys don't need even a shop manual to fix this stuff. You have the Internet. "a guy I know told me this would work" is not an acceptable repair strategy. Neither is "i found it on the Internet".

Here's the simplest rule for fixing something. If this engine was in an ambulance and I was counting on it to save my life - would I repair it like this? (spare me the EGR valve and cooler failure ****, we all know they fail but that is not the point I am trying to make). Would you like to be responsible for a failure that cost someone their life? Half assed and shoddy workmanship will always be why mechanics are not held to the same esteem as doctors and the like. The human body has remained relatively unchanged since nearly it's inception. Vehicles change all the time. Most folks will let nearly anyone work on their car. But would you go to "Joe's doctoring service and tire centre"? Sometimes the public's view of our profession is shaped by situations like this. Back to asking a public forum for repair information on a CUSTOMER vehicle. Unprofessional, and provides the public that mechanics as a whole are willing to undertake projects that they aren't able to repair in a timely fashion.

You guys continue doing whatever the **** you want. Don't let fear, experience, common sense, or the facts get in your way or slow any of you down. Keep on reaching for that rainbow.

you certainly did. you bitch like a girl. instead of offering help to the op,instead you are cutting people down,and lashing out just because you can..

you must like to hear yourself talk. in fact i can see you behind your key board screaming what your typing. you come on this board beating your chest,like your some kind of canuk alpha male.

guess what, all the info the op posted, and you yourself havent come up with a solution.

i guess your just as stupid as the the rest of us.

try laying off the canadian boner brew,and offer something useful!!!

or (i like this idea better) dont log on here!!!!!!

good day dill weed!

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Little update here.

The customer came to pick up the heads which were clearly in need of a valve job at the very least. Keep in mind they had the valves ground less than 10 miles ago. So he is battling with his machinist to get his money back and put that into new heads.

At that point we will move forward.

 

[tensixniner]

How did you find top dead center when you were measuring protrusion?

How clean was the deck surface? Did you use a straight edge when you checked the deck flatness?

Not sure if you missed this post hidden in this mess of a thread.

 

[Mdub707]

And hey, that's cool and I can respect that.

Things are a lot different in the Canadian dealer network as well as the Canadian automotive industry.

To be a licensed mechanic in Ontario a minimum of 9000 hours of apprenticeship is required along with three levels of trade school.

Also, in the dealer network here you are responsible for your work. You spend hours and hours on something and don't fix it (this is warranty i am talking about here) you don't get paid for it. It comes back because you didn't fix it right? You fix it for free. (Not sure in the states but here most of the dealer techs are flat rate or piece work.)

That being said - if you are flat rate and there's no accountability or work ownership there are techs that just churn out as much work as they can, right or not.

I have found through my travels on the interwebs that the majority of dissatisfaction with dealer diesel techs stems from the US.

When you work on something wouldn't you rather have a potential customer looking at a current customers truck and say "wow! That looks great! Who fixed that" over "holy ****, who's the hack job butcher that pieced that together?"

Good, cheap, fast. Pick two.

Sounds about right. Unfortunately it seems with flat rate work, there is no time left after the repair to drive the truck and verify the repair. I can't tell you how many times I went in for stuff, and drove it 10 miles and it was happening again. I brought it in once for auto 4x4 not working. Relatively simple fix, but it was under warranty and it was cold/snowy out and I had no garage at the time to do it myself. I picked it up, they had put in a new wheel bearing, one new seal, two new hubs and said it was done. I left the parking lot of the dealership sliding sideways because auto 4x4 still wasn't working. I was so mad I just left and never went back to that dealer. That was their 3rd strike.

Anyways, sorry for the rant, but you can see why some of us have a bitter taste in our mouths, especially after all the research we've done on our own. Sometimes these forums ARE the best place for information. I believe this specific forum (PSA) to be one of these.



Derek@Vision, hopefully your guy can get some money back on those heads... yikes, what a mess.

 

[protraxrptr17]

Always run a leakdown of all cylinders before teardown. Then check the leakers with smoke to verify where the leak(s) are. Nothing will break your heart more than replacing heads only to find leaky cylinders later. Thats what I do anyway. I also get my heads machined and Im not a dealership tech or a canadian, so....

 

[Mdub707]

I also get my heads machined and Im not a dealership tech or a canadian, so....

LOL

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Hopefully we will have the heads back in our hands end of this week.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

well I wanted to put a close to this thread, we have some results.

Ended up having the valves re ground and clearances re checked by our machinist. He found a couple of valves to be ground improperly.

We then sourced a used block out of an 06, had new bearings installed and a very light hone job. Then slapped it all back together.
Remember these heads still have the initial .014 taken off of them, so they are definitely out of spec (but customer did not want a warranty or anything, he just wanted it done cheap).

All was put back together and it runs like a top now. Still haven't had time to completely tear down the old block to see just what was making the loss of compression/strange ticking noise. Possibly a mixture of valves not sealing and a little bit of a lifter issue.

Truck is in the customers hands with probably 1000 miles on it by now and all is good!