Honest Reliability of 500hp+ 7.3 Trucks

Smokin6-0 · Apr 9, 2012

Sniper- I'm really not trying to HiJack your thread butting seems like I am wondering about a lot of the same issues as you. I hate seeing 10,000 threads about the same topics, when one good thread would work.

I think lowdown mentioned that he wishes would have gone with a T-4 mount the first time because it is going to cost him double now. This is what I would like to avoid. I would like to develop a good plan for my build and start buying the parts as I find deals, with an intention of building the truck spring 2013. As I previously mentioned I have my hands full taking care of other stuff right now like a messed up electrical system and junk interior. I have finally got a new bed on the truck, replaced a fender, and have the body reasonably straight.

My plan is to use an irate fuel system, s366 with mount from irate, 250/200 sticks (undecided on builder) SD intercooler, undecided HPOP, springs, pushrods, and studs. I understand that this is a lot of injector and I am prepared to invest in my tuning. I agree with Charles' suggestion that a larger nozzle can produce power in a safer and cleaner burning manner than a smaller nozzle. I hope that with tuning I can have a mild tune written that will make we the truck well mannered in the sand, when I don't need much power. Comments please

PowerstrokeJunkie · Apr 9, 2012

Do not go with 200% nozzles unless you are shooting for MORE than 550hp, it's certainly doable up to that level with 80%. And above that level you kind of jump into the next level of power where you're looking at a 300cc class injector

Big Bore · Apr 9, 2012

PowerstrokeJunkie said:
Why does everyone say that "every tuner pretty well has them down to an art by now" that is certainly NOT the case.

Do tell!!! Heh heh.

Smokin6-0 · Apr 9, 2012

PowerstrokeJunkie said:
Do not go with 200% nozzles unless you are shooting for MORE than 550hp, it's certainly doable up to that level with 80%. And above that level you kind of jump into the next level of power where you're looking at a 300cc class injector

Thanks for replying. All I know is what I have read so I am counting on the real experience of other members. What would the 200% nozzle hurt? I understand that they can have a poor idle and can be finicky to tune. Wouldnt a large nozzle allow me to inject my fuel later in the stroke (reducing strain on the rods)? At the same time wouldn't this larger nozzle allow me to inject the fuel quickly so that it is not being injected to late in the stroke (helping to control smoke). That was previously explained by Charles but it makes sense in my head.

I wouldn't try to milk every single horse oust of the set up that I listed earlier. I would hope that by shooting for only about 500-525 I would be able to make stuff last.

TARM · Apr 9, 2012

It is rather funny how that just a few years ago we were even telling people with basically anything above a exhaust and air filter they should get live tuned eventually. Remember the term "canned" tunes. Now fast forward to now and people are telling people that one shot "canned" tunes will work with injectors on the large size, good size turbos, any hpop from stock to duals, modded idms, etc. I fully believe that any of the good tuners we have on this forum can write tunes and send them off and they will work reasonable well in just about any reasonable setup. But as far as working ideally or at the very least without extra tweaks after they are in IMO its the exception not the rule. It just be people do not know what they have not yet experienced. Again to be clear I know for a fact tuning has come a LONG LONG ways when you look at all the tuner's tunes currently but I think plenty need to be further dialed in when you get to the point you are running custom setups with different mixes of turbos and injectors. I am not saying that base tunes are not good enough to get you on the road and get you a ton of power but to get things running smooth and everything timed the way it should be it takes tweaking things here and there, how ever you get that done. Ideally with the tuner in the cab, over the phone if need be but somehow none the less.

TyCorr · Apr 9, 2012

Smokin6-0 said:
Thanks for replying. All I know is what I have read so I am counting on the real experience of other members. What would the 200% nozzle hurt? I understand that they can have a poor idle and can be finicky to tune. Wouldnt a large nozzle allow me to inject my fuel later in the stroke (reducing strain on the rods)? At the same time wouldn't this larger nozzle allow me to inject the fuel quickly so that it is not being injected to late in the stroke (helping to control smoke). That was previously explained by Charles but it makes sense in my head.

I wouldn't try to milk every single horse oust of the set up that I listed earlier. I would hope that by shooting for only about 500-525 I would be able to make stuff last.

The problem with Charles logic and.suggestions is.that he tunes his truck. I dont know.that.the tuners are any better/smarter about tuning.than he.is. Thats purely my opinion and speculative.to boot. Reading.between the lines you'll see Im trying to tell you that Chuck does.things his way. If you reiterate what he says involving tuning.most of.the.time.you'll get a rebuttal. If you can find.someone to tame your intended parts.list you are golden. Outside that, get a tuner lined up and let them help you devise a plan.

I kinda expect to get live tuned after my build and then start learning to tune.

Smokin6-0 · Apr 9, 2012

TyCorr said:
The problem with Charles logic and.suggestions is.that he tunes his truck. I dont know.that.the tuners are any better/smarter about tuning.than he.is. Thats purely my opinion and speculative.to boot. Reading.between the lines you'll see Im trying to tell you that Chuck does.things his way. If you reiterate what he says involving tuning.most of.the.time.you'll get a rebuttal. If you can find.someone to tame your intended parts.list you are golden. Outside that, get a tuner lined up and let them help you devise a plan.

I kinda expect to get live tuned after my build and then start learning to tune.

If you asked two knowledgable members the same question you might get three correct answers. I understand that Charles has a lot more "time" in his trucks than most. So what are the negatives with big nozzles?

Any opinions on the S366?

TARM · Apr 9, 2012

Its as simple as this to me. If you understand what you are getting into and you have access to live tuning and the funds to get it done without trying to go without if you need it then I see no issue with it. If you are willing to handle some time to get things dialed in right without being impatient and wanting things done yesterday. Not hammering on it when you can tell things are off a bit.

TyCorr · Apr 9, 2012

I dont hink there are.negatives with the big.nozzles. I dont think tuners really like tuning.them. Especially on a daily driver. Who cares if a weekend.race.truck has choppy idle? Or hazes at idle or part throttle? Swamps says on their website that they feel a 200% nozzle is the limit.for.street driving. Id say that implies they can tune them just fine. Id also say Bill at PHP is down given the recent.thread about lowdowns build.

Powerstrokejunkie has some good points about what can be done with an 80% nozzle. If you.wanna get some 200 over nozzles Id.urge you to do it. I would imagine you'll be wanting.custom tunes shortly.after.that.

My.point.is simple but could be bs as I dont have any serious.mods on my truck. I feel tuning your own junk is important especially if you work on your own truck. If you pull your.motor and.trans and maintain the truck why not be responsible for being in tune(no pun intended) with the specific set of.values.that.determine what its ultimately going to do? This mindset isnt for everyone. If.a guy.cant finish a.brakejob, tuning.probably isnt within his grasp. Which is fine. It just seems at.that level you might as well do it all. Especially if you arent close to your tuner in geographic proximity.

TARM · Apr 9, 2012

I think all the big names on here can tune them. I know some guys that have tried out about every tuners tunes on a 200% largest turbo for a DD and only one was not that good. All could have used tweaks to get them really good but they were drivable for DD. But IMO you have to be prepared to need tweaking and to possibly deal with some smoke when cold in the winter on start up. Might take a tweak here and there to get idle perfect or the on/off of the throttle being nice and smooth. The issue is when people expect prefect stock level of perfection. It takes time to get them smooth like that and may not ever be completely reached. Some people are very picky some are not and everywhere in between with all different kinds of uses and needs.

I do think 200% nozzle can be tuned to be the perfect street nozzle and that with basically any turbo from stock up. The turbo of course will effect driveablity but with proper tunes it will not be the injector.

Smokin6-0 · Apr 9, 2012

Thanks for the input. This truck is just a weekend toy for me so that will certainly add some flexibility to getting it dialed in. I just really want to make some decisions so I can start gathering parts and do it right the first time.

silverpsd_06 · Apr 10, 2012

200% nozzle is a good set with 250cc much bigger than that 250cc you cant get the fuel in fast enough ya they haze at idle when cold mine is choppy too but at 500 and above its give and take... Tuning is what will make it manageable. Im not repeating from reading im repeating from experience 5 hole 226% nozzle is what I run knowing how to drive it it is completely controllable

Charles · Apr 10, 2012

Anything over 400rwhp and I would be running a 200EDM as my smallest possible nozzle choice.

And I would have no issue whatsoever running a 200 on a truck making 175rwhp either, it would just be a waste of money to do so, and a loss in idle and low power efficiency for no real gain.

If anyone wants to see how the people that get paid to select nozzles in these ranges do things, just start checking into nozzle sizes for diesel engines making 4 or 500rwhp. Think about that.... that's going to be a serious engine. Like a Cat C16.

Now do the engineers designing an engine from the ground up, having to meet emissions standards, meet warranty needs, keep an engine together for half a million plus miles, so on and so forth, choose a nozzle equivalent to an 80%?

Of course not. They run fire hoses into those cylinders so they can pop that chunk of fuel into that hole right now, real quick and real clean and make good, crisp power with lax timing and lax compression that will let an engine last.

I haven't in some time, so I don't want to err with bad memory, but I would urge some of you to actually look up the flowable areas for some common commercially available engines in the power range you wish to learn about, and see what the engineers that get payed to sit in test cells all day pick for nozzle sizes for a given power.

A quick start might be to note the nozzle used on the DT530 that only makes like 300hp, yet will pull well over 550rwhp on fuel. It can make over 550, yet for an engine that would NEVER see over 280 to 3xx, they chose it. They could make the hole count, size and angle whatever they wanted, and for a 300 some odd hp engine they chose the nozzle that comes on the BD injector that will support well over 500 on fuel in a 7.3.

Now I don't want to steer anybody down the wrong path here, because the reality is that all it takes is one person that doesn't know what they're doing to make something like a 200EDM into the biggest nightmare you've ever seen. I know, because back in the day a freakin 175/173 injector was a smoky nightmare, lol.

You have to tune them. For a 200EDM, in a working environment, maybe say 1.8ms MAX pulsewidth just for a starting point. Now with some people trying to run files with 3, 4 or 5ms right off the bottom of the pedal, yeah, it doesn't work. Can't work. And they go off with a completely F'ed conception of what the nozzle is, and how it acts.

So, as it has been for literally years now, the 200 still gets mixed reviews largely on the basis of incorrect tuning.

PowerstrokeJunkie · Apr 10, 2012

With all the knowledge you have on the subject, which im not doubting, why don't you start tuning engines for people? You are about the only person so adamant about how awesome the 200% nozzles are and how versatile, but I've seen the same truck with 300/200's switch between tuners that are popular among the board, one was way too fueley smokey and ran like a scalded ape but way off on tuning, and the other one was the exact opposite tame and basically near stock power but very smoke free. I wouldn't have a problem running 200% nozzles if my truck could run like the way you claim yours have on past experiences with no downsides that i've seen on mail order tuning, but I know it wont be the case if I go to 200%, id be unhappy I switched from a perfect running truck to a truck with these awesome 200% nozzles that run like schit

Charles · Apr 10, 2012

PowerstrokeJunkie said:
With all the knowledge you have on the subject, which im not doubting, why don't you start tuning engines for people? You are about the only person so adamant about how awesome the 200% nozzles are and how versatile, but I've seen the same truck with 300/200's switch between tuners that are popular among the board, one was way too fueley smokey and ran like a scalded ape but way off on tuning, and the other one was the exact opposite tame and basically near stock power but very smoke free. I wouldn't have a problem running 200% nozzles if my truck could run like the way you claim yours have on past experiences with no downsides that i've seen on mail order tuning, but I know it wont be the case if I go to 200%, id be unhappy I switched from a perfect running truck to a truck with these awesome 200% nozzles that run like schit

Curtis tunes his truck and runs all over the place on 200's with excellent response and crispness. Mike-o passed the Colorado emissions test with a set of 4-4's at 600rwhp on fuel.

Passed emissions in a file that pulled right at 6 on fuel with a 400 nozzle!

All the trucks running 80% nozzles in comparison, are a far cry from 600 on fuel, yet probably couldn't pass emissions even at the pathetic power level they're at...

The fact that tuning larger nozzles to make the power you want while still retaining great driveability isn't some obscure metaphysical task isn't something I made up. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist. It just takes someone capable of not letting any of the little numbers in the pw table go too stupid, too soon.

If you can't tune a truck to scoot around all day on 200's, crisp and clean, then just stop. Just leave the truck alone, because you just don't get it or there's something wrong with the truck.

TARM · Apr 10, 2012

Charles,

I agree with you on the performance of larger nozzles in DD street trucks after all there is proof of it driving around. Makes it hard to argue with that kind of proof. The one thing I do question is whether there is enough consistency from engine to engine where that kind of level of performance such as you Mike and others have achieved with larger nozzles is possible with canned tunes such as people have gotten use to with smaller nozzles. Personally I think once you reach the point where you are running custom air fuel and injectors etc that the person tuning either needs to be in the truck to do it or the owner should fully expect that there will likely need to be a number of rewrites to the first set of tunes they get unless they just happen to get lucky.

Big Bore · Apr 10, 2012

Charles said:
or there's something wrong with the truck.

I've seen a couple situations where a competent tuner just could not make a particular truck run right, and I was convinced it was something wrong with the truck, which leads me to a theory I have, all this talk about not being able to write tunes to order without live tuning and having to tweak trucks with live tuning makes me wonder if a lot of this live tuning is compensating for a deficiency somewhere.

Bigsexy · Apr 10, 2012

:whs:

TyCorr · Apr 10, 2012

Big Bore said:
I've seen a couple situations where a competent tuner just could not make a particular truck run right, and I was convinced it was something wrong with the truck, which leads me to a theory I have, all this talk about not being able to write tunes to order without live tuning and having to tweak trucks with live tuning makes me wonder if a lot of this live tuning is compensating for a deficiency somewhere.

This seems plausible. Wouldnt you suggest that to someone if you were tuning.their pile? I think I would since they might think everything.is hunky dory.

As long as we are on the subject, how is it guys can make a 200% + nozzle idle nice but many of us are experiencing clickety clackety, hammered dog shti on small inj's and semi-custom tuning? The 175's I have now idled slightly better than my stockers. I have.to.say, whatever Im making.with 175/80's isnt where I wanna be. Its better than stock but only by a.little. I am COMPLETELY sold.on the theory of why a 200% nozzle is a perfect match for an all around.truck but my biggest qualm is if I buy a set of 250's or 300's and put 200% edm nozzles on them, what if the tuning doesnt.turn out.like I want? I suppose thats pointless to think that way as Id.probably have Bill tune it at PHP.

Are some of us running stock, stg I, or stg II injectors overthinking this? Im thinking put.some.studs, springs and a reg return with an upgraded pump in there and move on. Take the leap!