How do you guys feel about: ARPs vs the H11/H13s?

SEABEE08FX4 · Mar 24, 2014

Less strech = less torque needed. Don't try to torque H11 / H13 like you do a set of 17-22A ARP's.

MrOneEyedBoh · Mar 24, 2014

I know lol. I know people are still going to do that and then blame it on the fastener. I know whole-heartily about NOT over torquing. I do understand the principle about torquing... More is not better.

onebadcoastie · Mar 24, 2014

mcdaniel1991 said:
You may or may not have seen this but..http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46978

So I just read through that link and found the torque value for the h13's. My question is and this is based solely on my experience with aircraft and stretching fasteners to achieve a desire torque. The h13's are a higher rated tensile fastener than the "normal" arp's which are only 190K but they have a higher torque rating. If the h13 is indeed a tougher material, then hypothetically it would require more torque to stretch. Am I missing something here?

MrOneEyedBoh · Mar 24, 2014

Its not about stretching it, ibetter yet read this post I made.. Hopefully it helps

http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-...ot-o-ring-heads-out-there-18.html#post8269098

SEABEE08FX4 · Mar 24, 2014

onebadcoastie said:
So I just read through that link and found the torque value for the h13's. My question is and this is based solely on my experience with aircraft and stretching fasteners to achieve a desire torque. The h13's are a higher rated tensile fastener than the "normal" arp's which are only 190K but they have a higher torque rating. If the h13 is indeed a tougher material, then hypothetically it would require more torque to stretch. Am I missing something here?

Its a harder material and more susceptible to breaking if over torqued since it does not stretch like the 17-22A material. So if its says 180 don try to take it to 200 or chances are you will break one.

Mdub707 · Mar 25, 2014

onebadcoastie said:
So I just read through that link and found the torque value for the h13's. My question is and this is based solely on my experience with aircraft and stretching fasteners to achieve a desire torque. The h13's are a higher rated tensile fastener than the "normal" arp's which are only 190K but they have a higher torque rating. If the h13 is indeed a tougher material, then hypothetically it would require more torque to stretch. Am I missing something here?

Higher tensile strength means less overall torque needed to achieve the same clamping force. Stretch is what gives you the clamping force, they all need SOME stretch. The ARP's, being a softer material (less tensile strength) need to be torqued higher to achieve the same clamping force.

To answer your question, yes you would need MORE torque to get the same stretch as measure in distance, but .005" of stretch on a 210k tensile strength stud will have more clamping force than .005" of stretch on a 190k tensile strength stud. Does that make sense?

This is all assuming we're aiming for the same clamping force.

Let's say we're aiming for clamping force "X" Put any number you want on it, but it's the goal. The higher tensile strength studs require less torque to achieve the same X. However, once both are torqued properly (ARP standards vs H13), both have the same clamping force, but once cylinder pressures start knocking on the door of the clamping force X, the H13 will hold that clamp harder than the ARP, due to the higher tensile strength. This is also why guys can get away torquing the hell out of those ARP's without breaking them, but if you over torque an H13, you're going to break it way easier. It may only take an extra 20 ft/lbs of torque to snap an H13 due to the nature of the higher tensile strength. The higher that tensile strength, the more brittle the material as well, typically.

MrOneEyedBoh · Mar 25, 2014

I wonder how the naked H11 stud ( no corrosion protection ) will fair against the elements? Its not covered in oil in the block thus having ambient air around it, and having the end of the nut exposed thru the nut on top. Wouldnt that cause rust and allow it to seep down the threads between the nut and stud?

the Extremes are black oxide coated, though B.O. can still rust, I dont know how readily.

SEABEE08FX4 · Mar 25, 2014

MrOneEyedBoh said:
I wonder how the naked H11 stud ( no corrosion protection ) will fair against the elements? Its not covered in oil in the block thus having ambient air around it, and having the end of the nut exposed thru the nut on top. Wouldnt that cause rust and allow it to seep down the threads between the nut and stud?

the Extremes are black oxide coated, though B.O. can still rust, I dont know how readily.

I coat the entire stud in antiseize, just a lite coat not gobbed on. Not sure if it will fair any better that way but I figure its better than nothing.

onebadcoastie · Mar 25, 2014

Cerakote them bad boys!!!

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com

MrOneEyedBoh · Mar 25, 2014

Lol... This sh!t is gettin' crazy. I foind a set of CA625s for 1100 shipped. Might be the way to go. Or just get the Extreme studs.

onebadcoastie · Mar 25, 2014

Mix it up. get them both. Install the extreme's on one side and the 625's on the other. See which hold up better? hahaha

mcdaniel1991 · Mar 25, 2014

onebadcoastie said:
Mix it up. get them both. Install the extreme's on one side and the 625's on the other. See which hold up better? hahaha

Brilliant...!

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk

MrOneEyedBoh · Mar 25, 2014

Good idea.

Mdub707 · Mar 28, 2014

MrOneEyedBoh said:
I wonder how the naked H11 stud ( no corrosion protection ) will fair against the elements? Its not covered in oil in the block thus having ambient air around it, and having the end of the nut exposed thru the nut on top. Wouldnt that cause rust and allow it to seep down the threads between the nut and stud?

the Extremes are black oxide coated, though B.O. can still rust, I dont know how readily.

My standard ARP's have a little surface rust on them on the top that I can see...

SEABEE08FX4 said:
I coat the entire stud in antiseize, just a lite coat not gobbed on. Not sure if it will fair any better that way but I figure its better than nothing.

Exactly, just do this if you're concerned about it. I don't see it being an issue.

onebadcoastie said:
Cerakote them bad boys!!!

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com

This is an option. For hardware I have in the past coated them with a molybdenum coating. A guy that used to powdercoat our ATV race parts started doing the moly coatings. If anyone is familiar with 400ex/450R's, the big bolt that held the swingarm to the frame was common for bending and also seizing in the spacers/swingarm. It was considered normal maintenance to pull that bolt and grease it every so often. Guys even went so far as to modify the spacers and and install grease fittings on the spacers and some even on the bolt. Tons of crazy things just to get that bolt not to stick in place. Found out all it took was a $10 coating of molybdenum. We would coat them in that, and we could leave it all race season and still two finger pull it out at the end of the year. The coating appears black on the outside. Even when the coating would wear off, they would still work just like when the coating was there. I believe it changed the external portion of the material slightly, similar to an anodized part, but it's been ages since I've read into it. I just remember it being.... awesome.

MrOneEyedBoh said:
Lol... This sh!t is gettin' crazy. I foind a set of CA625s for 1100 shipped. Might be the way to go. Or just get the Extreme studs.

onebadcoastie said:
Mix it up. get them both. Install the extreme's on one side and the 625's on the other. See which hold up better? hahaha

Myself, I'd stick with the extreme. The 625's scare me a little bit with the very high tensile strength and the REALLY high torque values. The thought of block distortion is what bothers me with that.

onebadcoastie · Mar 28, 2014

We use Moly-B at work as well…good stuff..

78f100 · Mar 28, 2014

What's final tq on extreme 6.4 studs? I cracked a block with elite/a1 studs and iirc final on them is 190ft# Or it was already cracked when i got it from ford idk. I am gonna try the extreme studs on my race truck.

onebadcoastie · Mar 28, 2014

A blocked cracked at 190 lbft torque on a fastener? Dayum!

bigrpowr · Apr 2, 2014

78f100 said:
What's final tq on extreme 6.4 studs? I cracked a block with elite/a1 studs and iirc final on them is 190ft# Or it was already cracked when i got it from ford idk. I am gonna try the extreme studs on my race truck.

210#