David N
Active member
No that was with my 350/200's. Mine was dropping to 1800ish ICP and now holds 3000+. Adding the gen3 freakin woke my truck up, thats for sure! Even the injectors and motor just sound different now.
HPPO FAILURE .. NEED OPINIONS/ADVICE
- Thread starter DieselJpower
- Start date
No that was with my 350/200's. Mine was dropping to 1800ish ICP and now holds 3000+. Adding the gen3 freakin woke my truck up, thats for sure! Even the injectors and motor just sound different now.
DieselJpower
Member
I don't really want to even risk this motor any more. I'm thinking either tear it down and rebuild, or buy another forged long block and swap parts after a thorough cleaning. The real suck fest with it is I only drove this motor about 130 miles since I swapped it in March. Maybe I can use this as an excuse to build a billet rod motor.. haaa wife would want to shoot me.
DieselJpower
Member
That's honestly the direction I'm leaning right now. Probably the least negative feedback I see is about the Adrenaline. It's definitely proved itself for a good while now.
gnxtc2
Active member
You need to pull the motor and clean everything. The brass and whatever metal from the grenaded HPOP went everywhere. Remember, upon start up the HPOP picks up unfiltered oil. Plus, the oil pickup screen is clogged up with metal. And the injectors need to be sent back to be gone through.
Billy T.
[email protected]
Billy T.
[email protected]
DieselJpower
Member
I'm thinking of just parting it out and buying a drop in ready unit. I just don't have the time to tediously go through every oil passway in the motor. Send the injectors off to Tim to make sure they're good and put them in something fresh. That or I'll have this motor completely torn down and rebuilt so I know it's clean. Not even worth the risk and hassle if there's even a slight chance that some metal is still floating around. And it's pretty much a guarantee rather than a slight chance.
Jennifer@Dieselsite
New member
Maybe I read the topic a little fast and missed some key points and if I did then I'm so sorry and call me an idiot....
BUT -
... this just looks like a typical HPOP failure?
Even down the symptoms: truck shut off driving wouldn't restart.
When an internal piece decides it's ready to die and your pump is in full fast rotation, this is what happens. Just because it was a HB JR doesn't mean the same failure wouldn't have happened with a Bosch pump or any other brand if one of the internal pieces decided it's lifespan was up that day. It's mechanical and man made = they break. Do all fail in this manner? No, but they can and do. At least Dyno Proven was nice enough to send you pictures of what it looks like when it happens as opposed to Ford who would have laughed at you.
So, can some of the debris come through after it dies? It happens but not in most instances - especially if it's not still pumping. Just the initial debris pushing out as it died > you might see it squeeze past the wiper seal in the front of the pump or find some flakes in the IPR or the rest get picked up by the filter. Nothing is going to continue to come out if it isn't even firing. In horrible situations of odd failures or aftermarket setups, yes the debris can continue to pump out if the truck is running and go through the system. Always best to be safe with an expensive truck build so having the injectors looked at is never a bad thing. If you truly had to have your motor serviced because of this I am SO SORRY and hope you understand how uncommon it is and that you won a very unlucky lottery ticket.
So the insides looks scary and horrific but this is how pump failures look when you break down the pump. How else would one expect it to look? Damage is going to look like any high RPM mechanical failure. If you're good, you MAY even be able to tell what part broke first (spring, piston, piston foot, whatever) to take out the rest.
I suppose the only thing REALLY throwing me off about this is a pump manufacturers claim to never have seen anything like this... I mean, tear down 20 cores and at least 1 will look like this.
They may not be able to tell you exactly what failed - it's hard in one like this - but it doesn't mean it was something they would have been able to control in their building process nor you with your purchase.
Don't mean any disrespect towards anyone! Just sharing what I know as a pump manufacturer!
BUT -
... this just looks like a typical HPOP failure?
Even down the symptoms: truck shut off driving wouldn't restart.
When an internal piece decides it's ready to die and your pump is in full fast rotation, this is what happens. Just because it was a HB JR doesn't mean the same failure wouldn't have happened with a Bosch pump or any other brand if one of the internal pieces decided it's lifespan was up that day. It's mechanical and man made = they break. Do all fail in this manner? No, but they can and do. At least Dyno Proven was nice enough to send you pictures of what it looks like when it happens as opposed to Ford who would have laughed at you.
So, can some of the debris come through after it dies? It happens but not in most instances - especially if it's not still pumping. Just the initial debris pushing out as it died > you might see it squeeze past the wiper seal in the front of the pump or find some flakes in the IPR or the rest get picked up by the filter. Nothing is going to continue to come out if it isn't even firing. In horrible situations of odd failures or aftermarket setups, yes the debris can continue to pump out if the truck is running and go through the system. Always best to be safe with an expensive truck build so having the injectors looked at is never a bad thing. If you truly had to have your motor serviced because of this I am SO SORRY and hope you understand how uncommon it is and that you won a very unlucky lottery ticket.
So the insides looks scary and horrific but this is how pump failures look when you break down the pump. How else would one expect it to look? Damage is going to look like any high RPM mechanical failure. If you're good, you MAY even be able to tell what part broke first (spring, piston, piston foot, whatever) to take out the rest.
I suppose the only thing REALLY throwing me off about this is a pump manufacturers claim to never have seen anything like this... I mean, tear down 20 cores and at least 1 will look like this.
They may not be able to tell you exactly what failed - it's hard in one like this - but it doesn't mean it was something they would have been able to control in their building process nor you with your purchase.
Don't mean any disrespect towards anyone! Just sharing what I know as a pump manufacturer!
DieselJpower
Member
Hey this thread is open to all opinions and input, and I greatly appreciate yours.
You're making me feel alot better about this, however I'm going to still expect a motor swap in my near future that way if it's not necessary it will be a bonus to the 45th degree.
The sales guy @ dp advised I tear the motor down because the flakes are likely all through the motor.
I like your view alot more better. Just need to pray it didn't spread past the pump.
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gnxtc2
Active member
Let's see how you will answer this.....
If someone bought a Dieselsite Adrenaline HPOP and within the warranty period this happened. Would you pay for the motor/injectors to be cleaned? Or would you just warranty the pump?
Billy T.
[email protected]
Jennifer@Dieselsite
New member
I will answer it honestly:
No. We would just warranty the pump. If that person wanted to talk to the owners about special circumstances, we obviously can evaluate, but our warranty is to replace and or repair the product only. No labor either. And unfortunately, this is pretty industry norm for manufacturers.
I wouldn't expect Dyno Proven to be obligated to do so either BUT that decision can always be made by the owner if they wanted to. Just because a policy states something doesn't mean special arrangements couldn't be made.
I had a glass tank for my salt water aquarium break once from a faulty caulk line. I lost all my coral, all my fish, and all my time spent on it. The manufacturer of the tank sent me a replacement and even expedited the replacement for me but they would not cover what I lost from the tank breaking. I hated them for awhile, I bitched for days, but working here has made me realize why it's just not a reasonable thing to expect. If that glass tank company had to reimburse me for everything I'd lost and also do it for all their other customers, how are they going to stay in business? Even if it was a rare circumstance for them. The value of one customers replacement fish might be $10 and then sure a good company would want to cover it but in my circumstance? It was not $10 and then you're just a bad company to cover the $10 guy but not the weirdo person who just dumped 6 months worth of salary into fish she can't even eat.
EDIT - Here's a copy paste of a very well known and reputable manufacturer for turbos, transmissions, etc in the industry just to kind of reiterate how common this is for manufacturers:
We don't currently write our own warranty in such lawyer lingo but I'm pretty sure it states: "we cover our product and not damages or costs incurred from warranty claims on it." Please, though, correct me if I'm reading it wrong.
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Vader's Fury
Active member
Pull the oil filter and cut it open. If particles went everywhere, then the filter is definitely full of them. If it looks relatively clean, I would just have my index toes checked, clean out the hpo passages in the heads and rock it.
psduser1
Well-known member
In twenty years of tinkering, on several platforms, I would say this is pretty standard for "aftermarket","performance" parts. Definitely pay your dollar, and take your chance.
DieselJpower
Member
Index toes ?? Pardon my ignorance..
I'm with the cut the filter open and have the oil inspected. Most of these failures just send junk into the oil sides of the injectors and IPR. If you were to see inside the oil side of an injector you will see that the oil travels thru very tight spaces. Granted some smaller particle matter may make it thru. If you flush it out an do a few short oil change intervals you should be OK. As for the particles that may be floating in the pan if any it will be caught by the filter before being fed to the hpop system and oil galleries. The worst case scenario would be trashing the lpop and front cover but i think that would be worst case. I think quiet a few have had these hpop failures I have read over the years and replacing the hpop, IPR, and checking the injectors into the doctor got most back in business. I would roll with it but that's me. Worst case scenario you would have to swap in another engine anyways and your refreshed injectors and new hpop should be protected as they are fed oil after the filter.
mikeeg02
New member
If dare to bet he meant injectors. Autoincorrect struck him. If I was a betting man.
DieselJpower
Member
Oh dam good eye haha .. I'm thinking man why have i never heard of those. I hate that stupid auto crap , it auto misspelles most of the time on me.
DieselJpower
Member
Alright, so I pulled injectors and sent them to the doc. Put some rags in the bottom of the cups and layed some rags on top of the injector bore. Sent brake clean down the hpop lines into the heads then air then repeated several times. Seemed quite clean so hopefully that's a good sign.
There was a bunch of brass in the hpop resivoir, that was fun to remove. Got that clean too, now I'm waiting on new HD hpop lines that I'm converting to jic connections, injectors to get a clean bill of health then I'll reinstall followed by change the oil. Obviously I'll check out the oil and filter well before I go any further.
Hopefully the injectors will be back by early next week.
There was a bunch of brass in the hpop resivoir, that was fun to remove. Got that clean too, now I'm waiting on new HD hpop lines that I'm converting to jic connections, injectors to get a clean bill of health then I'll reinstall followed by change the oil. Obviously I'll check out the oil and filter well before I go any further.
Hopefully the injectors will be back by early next week.
Arisley
Moderator
Good answer.
In approximately 50 years of tinkering, I have learned pretty much the same thing. We all know when we spend our first dollar on "performance" mods, reliability starts to dwindle.
Good deal, and good luck.
m j
Active member
so where does one get these updated springs?
the brass shavings tell you where the damage was done IMO
the brass shavings tell you where the damage was done IMO
DieselJpower
Member
I've been told they're a different material, and I've been told that it was just a bad batch of springs they had... no clue really.
DieselJpower
Member
Quick Update :
Injectors were good although one needed a nozzle, this was unrelated. Pis said the brass was borderline microscopic and no damage occurred.
Decided to run the jr since I have had all good experiences with Jon, and he has stood behind his products with me at least.
Put a new oem screened hpop gasket in there, and plan on ripping the gen 3 back off in about 2-3k miles to inspect the screen and clean it out.
Dumped the LE oil with exactly 0 miles on it, put in some cheap new oil and filter in again. Ran it 33 miles and changed it and filter again. Have since put another probably 400 miles on it and will change it again in another couple hundred miles. Next change I will run 3k and will be using LE. I have an analysis kit here to send to Jim after a I change that oil.
I used a paper paint strainer to sift through the oil in the filter after I punched a hole in it. Did this with the zero mile oil as well as the 33 mile stuff. Definitely caught some brass in there, though not a ton. I plan on chopping the filters open as soon as time permits and will post pics.
Truck fired right up (once I charged the batteries) and has run strong the whole time. A true blessing that this wasn't alot worse.
Thank you all for your advice and input. This thread helped prevent me from pushing the truck off a cliff.
Now in need of some more air flow, so my little 38r is about to get demoted and a 472sxe is on its way to replace it.
Injectors were good although one needed a nozzle, this was unrelated. Pis said the brass was borderline microscopic and no damage occurred.
Decided to run the jr since I have had all good experiences with Jon, and he has stood behind his products with me at least.
Put a new oem screened hpop gasket in there, and plan on ripping the gen 3 back off in about 2-3k miles to inspect the screen and clean it out.
Dumped the LE oil with exactly 0 miles on it, put in some cheap new oil and filter in again. Ran it 33 miles and changed it and filter again. Have since put another probably 400 miles on it and will change it again in another couple hundred miles. Next change I will run 3k and will be using LE. I have an analysis kit here to send to Jim after a I change that oil.
I used a paper paint strainer to sift through the oil in the filter after I punched a hole in it. Did this with the zero mile oil as well as the 33 mile stuff. Definitely caught some brass in there, though not a ton. I plan on chopping the filters open as soon as time permits and will post pics.
Truck fired right up (once I charged the batteries) and has run strong the whole time. A true blessing that this wasn't alot worse.
Thank you all for your advice and input. This thread helped prevent me from pushing the truck off a cliff.
Now in need of some more air flow, so my little 38r is about to get demoted and a 472sxe is on its way to replace it.
