Hybrids or big oil?

[jaybuller]

alright folks this is for those that have done the big oil before on 160 or 175 sticks. As I have never done big oil on any of my builds. Through my reaserch I've come to the conclusion that the hybrids will be the way to go but let me know what your experience have been.

I have 160/30 sticks, truck runs great power is there however of coarse I want more. I have a stock hpop but holds psi very well with zero issues keeping up in even the hottest tune. I'm guessing I'm around 400 to the wheels just going by my previously dynoed combos in my other builds. My question is this. Would I be better off power wise efficiency wise less egt and less smoke going with my setup I have now plus big oil or would I be better off with a set of 250/200 hybrids and keeping my stock HPop?

Yes I realize the hybrids plus the big oil would be ideal but that's not in the cards.... Mabel in the future but let's here it.

 

[mandkole]

Are you donating the horse to this beatdown? :toast:

I wont go back to small nozzles, and when a stock 17* meets my needs, wont go to big oil either. I expect this pump to handle 200s just fine some day.

 

[jaybuller]

I see you went hybrids stock oil.... That's the only way I've ever done it as well I was just curious as to those who have actually ran big oil on smallish sticks

 

[TyCorr]

Ive never ran duals or gen3 with anything but i did run a healthy srp with ads and 175s...

My 250/200s have yet to see any real pump...im running a 17 out of a 135k mile truck. No issues with 2.5ms of pw or less.

 

[jaybuller]

I take it you like the bigger sticks with stock oil better? I'm so tempted to just go with the gen 3 and keep my 160s for a while and see how it is. I know I eventually will go to bigger sticks but I just want to see what it's like. I'm sure someone out there has done it. I'm still only looking for 450 or so hp but I'd really like the power to be clean and flat not peaky

 

[CurtisF]

Ask yourself this.....

If the stock pump is holding PSI now, and you're swapping to another pump to hold the same PSI, then what exactly are you gaining?


Some people, including myself, have tried the "extreme ICP" experiment years ago. While I can verify that you do gain power going that route, there's other issues to deal with.

I've found it better to go with injectors that will have more than enough in the tank to get you to your goals, and run the HPOP that delivers the necessary oil volume, even if that means keeping the stock HPOP. Simple, easy, done. Way more reliable and with much greater longevity.

 

[Bair]

There was another thread similar to this recently and I said the same thing there as I'm going to here.
I ran a stealth dual setup with 275/100's. I always felt like the dual's made for a snappier,crisper, torquier (whatever you want to call it) powerband. I know that there are medium oil pumps that would have supplied the desired icp for those injectors but it would have taken longer for that pump to reach that desired icp level. Whereas the dual's got the icp to that desired level faster and at a much lower rpm. Therefore less lag, more instant power.
Does this make sense and if so, why does everyone say to only run a pump that will HOLD desired icp instead of a pump that will not only hold icp but get there much quicker.
This is my theory and I'm not the most knowledgable on the subject, so those that know, feel free to shoot the theory down.
But having run the dual pumps in the past, I know that I'm going to run them again whenever I can get them in the truck.

On edit. I get the simplicity of a single pump if that's the whole reason behind that option but it seems to me that the gains to be made with a dual setup would be worth it. As far as reliability, I never had any issues with the dual stock pump, dual ipr, 4 line output setup.

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[CurtisF]

There was another thread similar to this recently and I said the same thing there as I'm going to here.
I ran a stealth dual setup with 275/100's. I always felt like the dual's made for a snappier,crisper, torquier (whatever you want to call it) powerband. I know that there are medium oil pumps that would have supplied the desired icp for those injectors but it would have taken longer for that pump to reach that desired icp level. Whereas the dual's got the icp to that desired level faster and at a much lower rpm. Therefore less lag, more instant power.
Does this make sense and if so, why does everyone say to only run a pump that will HOLD desired icp instead of a pump that will not only hold icp but get there much quicker.
This is my theory and I'm not the most knowledgable on the subject, so those that know, feel free to shoot the theory down.
But having run the dual pumps in the past, I know that I'm going to run them again whenever I can get them in the truck.

On edit. I get the simplicity of a single pump if that's the whole reason behind that option but it seems to me that the gains to be made with a dual setup would be worth it. As far as reliability, I never had any issues with the dual stock pump, dual ipr, 4 line output setup.

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I've also ran duals, and my experience differed from yours.

Having said that... there is a bit of validity to what you are saying. But there's a reason behind it, and it's not what you think.


After the whole extreme ICP thing, I went back to having normal peak ICP pressures while still running the dual pumps. I also ran a permanent HPOP gauge on the pillar for live monitoring of ICP. At this time I was also doing my own tuning, so I could see directly the ICP tables, duty cycle, etc that the tuning was calling for and adjust as such.

What I noticed when I swapped back to a stock single is that oil pressure builds so quickly that it's very difficult to discern a difference between the two setups. The stock pump could peg 3,000 psi just as quickly as the duals could.

We're talking less than a second here, so if the duals could do it quicker, it would be by the smallest of margins.... fractions of seconds.

However......

Something else I noticed with the tuning aspect is that dual pumps are sensitive to duty cycle changes. That portion of the tuning had to be tweaked in order to prevent having a "jumpy" pedal. What I found is that if the duty cycle wasn't quite matched up to the dual pumps, any slight push on the pedal made ICP quickly jump up rather than ramp up smoothly and linear with the pedal. In many cases, that felt like the truck was quicker and had more instant power on tap.

The reality was the PCM was fighting itself to try and keep ICP where the tuning was calling, but duty cycle wanted to be somewhere else. That feeling of quicker and instant power actually became a pain in the a$$ on bumpy roads or when trying to 4wheel out in the mountains because the pedal felt too sensitive thanks to spiking ICP with just slight pedal movements.

That little experiment came with trial-and-error tuning. Once I figured out how to knock the duty cycle down, the dual pump setup literally felt like a stock single, and the jumpy pedal went away.

 

[Bair]

Gotcha. That makes sense. And also interesting to hear how quickly a single builds pressure as well. Thanks for that. I wouldn't say, in my case, that my pedal was jumpy. So apparently the duty cycle was in check like you mentioned.


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[jeremiahmercier]

From my experience, only 175/100s, I definitely had lower egts and less smoke with the 100s vs the stock nozzles, if had to do it all over again, I'd gone 238/200s or 250/200s. My original HPOP wasn't holding pressure with stock injectors, so I had to replace mine and just elected to use a T500 (adrenaline as another choice), it never have me issues and always supplied the ICP needed. So my vote goes to the hybrids vs big oil

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

 

[fords4life]

I've also ran duals, and my experience differed from yours.

Having said that... there is a bit of validity to what you are saying. But there's a reason behind it, and it's not what you think.


After the whole extreme ICP thing, I went back to having normal peak ICP pressures while still running the dual pumps. I also ran a permanent HPOP gauge on the pillar for live monitoring of ICP. At this time I was also doing my own tuning, so I could see directly the ICP tables, duty cycle, etc that the tuning was calling for and adjust as such.

What I noticed when I swapped back to a stock single is that oil pressure builds so quickly that it's very difficult to discern a difference between the two setups. The stock pump could peg 3,000 psi just as quickly as the duals could.

We're talking less than a second here, so if the duals could do it quicker, it would be by the smallest of margins.... fractions of seconds.

However......

Something else I noticed with the tuning aspect is that dual pumps are sensitive to duty cycle changes. That portion of the tuning had to be tweaked in order to prevent having a "jumpy" pedal. What I found is that if the duty cycle wasn't quite matched up to the dual pumps, any slight push on the pedal made ICP quickly jump up rather than ramp up smoothly and linear with the pedal. In many cases, that felt like the truck was quicker and had more instant power on tap.

The reality was the PCM was fighting itself to try and keep ICP where the tuning was calling, but duty cycle wanted to be somewhere else. That feeling of quicker and instant power actually became a pain in the a$$ on bumpy roads or when trying to 4wheel out in the mountains because the pedal felt too sensitive thanks to spiking ICP with just slight pedal movements.

That little experiment came with trial-and-error tuning. Once I figured out how to knock the duty cycle down, the dual pump setup literally felt like a stock single, and the jumpy pedal went away.

Was that with a dual or single IPR?

 

[CurtisF]

Was that with a dual or single IPR?

Single IPR.

 

[Bair]

Single IPR.

Maybe that had something to do with how driveable my setup was. Dual ipr and 4 line feed.


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[jaybuller]

Well thanks guys I gather from the responses about what I figured! I think a nice set of 250/200 injectors are my next move after the minatour purchase.

 

[elrodalexander73]

Sir I run a set of 250/200's with an Adrenaline and I couldn't be happier, when I built the engine with studs, springs, and pushrods as well as some pocket porting the driveability is incredible, very cool egts. I bought the Hydra and have several tunes from Gear Head and Bob at PHP, the Gear Head tunes are excellent towing tunes, decent idle, no smoke... Debating when I do my cab swap which T4 turbo I will run but I definitely can say no to the D66 for sure.

 

[fords4life]

Maybe that had something to do with how driveable my setup was. Dual ipr and 4 line feed.


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I ran a single IPR with twins on stock injectors with zero issues except when in 4Lo, then the pedal was a little touchy. Currently running twins with a single IPR and 315/200 B-Codes with no issues.