injector builders???

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Would there be any performance gains to be had by using an upgraded HPOP with hybrids?

Would EGTs be higher with a hybrid?

Billy T.
[email protected]

I'm from the school nearly every:ford:erupt can benefit from more hpo.

A stock AD can use more hpo.

Only two scenarios we have seen required zero upgrades. Stock AA injectors and our 200/80's with a 17* pump. That setup would hold 3100icp all day. And that's what it was calling for. So no idea how far it would go.

 

[psduser1]

200s are an a-code, tim?

I hate quoting myself, guess I should have read previous posts better.

My question is why do you prefer a codes? Your post previous to my quote states a 20 hp difference between the the two sizes, and the 200 (hybrid) injectors require less a smaller pump, to boot. :wtf:

Are you referring to area under the line, or peak, on the dyno graph?

 

[TyCorr]

I hate quoting myself, guess I should have read previous posts better.

My question is why do you prefer a codes? Your post previous to my quote states a 20 hp difference between the the two sizes, and the 200 (hybrid) injectors require less a smaller pump, to boot. :wtf:

Are you referring to area under the line, or peak, on the dyno graph?

In this thread the 200s are hybrids.

 

[psduser1]

Ah, fkit. My comprehension skills are subpar, apparently.
Thanks ty, if I read this a few more times, I'll catch up, lol.

 

[TyCorr]

Ah, fkit. My comprehension skills are subpar, apparently.
Thanks ty, if I read this a few more times, I'll catch up, lol.

What you need to know.brother? Pm me if you want.

 

[TARM]

He is saying he prefers the hybrids not the A codes. Basically while a codes in theory give a bit more atomization at very low demand times they require more oil. The only down side to hybrids is cost. They are usually a bit more money as its not just a stock A code with a nozzle swap but actual barrel and plunger change to effect the ratio. That is basic over simplification of it all. Point being hybrids use less oil and because of this can flow more in a given period of time thus more HP as it can extend the RPM power band. But in terms of nozzles IMO you are not going to really see much return until you go to 80% nozzles for the cost. So if a person only is looking for small increase a 30% a code. If they want more power and this is my opinion but its shared by a number of people, you step up to larger nozzles and switch to hybrid design.

Now personally I do not see much use is going under 200% nozzles but once you jump up from 30% but I have to say 80% nozzles are some very clean smooth running nozzles. If you are never going to want to get over 500 HP then I would say you could save money and stay with 200-250cc/80% hybrids and be very very satisfied with the results. One of the most fun to drive street combos is a 38R and 230cc 80% hybrids and that brings you very close to 500HP if you want to stretch it out.

 

[TyCorr]

He is saying he prefers the hybrids not the A codes. Basically while a codes in theory give a bit more atomization at very low demand times they require more oil.

"That still proves to me A codes make more hp per cc than hybrids. My opinion, feel free to make your own."

Tarm, and the sentence in quotes is what Tim said. Im pretty sure he prefers the a code. Or at least what he said above.

That said, the other part in your quote about atomization has been debunked as well. Once hpo starts diminishing to the point that nozzle pressures drop the hybrid kicks the crap out of the a code due to less pressure drop across the hpo poppets. Hydraulic advantage becomes disadvantage for the a code.

That was explained best by HRT.
__________________

 

[ja_cain]

"That still proves to me A codes make more hp per cc than hybrids. My opinion, feel free to make your own."

Tarm, and the sentence in quotes is what Tim said. Im pretty sure he prefers the a code. Or at least what he said above.

That said, the other part in your quote about atomization has been debunked as well. Once hpo starts diminishing to the point that nozzle pressures drop the hybrid kicks the crap out of the a code due to less pressure drop across the hpo poppets. Hydraulic advantage becomes disadvantage for the a code.

That was explained best by HRT.
__________________

Exactly! The volume of oil required to displace a given amount of fuel is significantly different between the two. As the flow rate of fuel goes up so must the flow rate of oil and that is when the pressure drops become more significant especially for the A code since it has a higher oil volume to fill per volume of fuel displaced. It is not a linear relationship either. Keep in mind this assumes the passages/poppet valve feeding the volume above the intensifier piston are the same (if looked at as a valve Cv's are equivalent). Any modifications that would make these different means all bets are off.

That thread that HRT made was awesome and very informative. If someone has the link they should post it here.

 

[V-Ref]

Unlimited is the only one offering a lifetime warranty on thier injectors last I checked.

 

[V-Ref]

"That still proves to me A codes make more hp per cc than hybrids. My opinion, feel free to make your own."

Tarm, and the sentence in quotes is what Tim said. Im pretty sure he prefers the a code. Or at least what he said above.

That said, the other part in your quote about atomization has been debunked as well. Once hpo starts diminishing to the point that nozzle pressures drop the hybrid kicks the crap out of the a code due to less pressure drop across the hpo poppets. Hydraulic advantage becomes disadvantage for the a code.

That was explained best by HRT.
__________________

Ding ding! Big brain on TyCorr! WHS...+1000

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Instead of pulling quotes from several different posts I will put this here for anyone that is interested.

We have done many test over the years. This is a recap of just one.

Two injectors assembled, an A code 175cc/80% and a hybrid built to 175cc/80% to keep as many similarities as possible.

You can not make a better direct comparison of A code to hybrid injector operation.

These two injectors tested side by side (actually used two of each for consistency) where run at 3200PSI ICP(pump max at the time) and varying PW sets from 4MS to 1.6MS. So they both had every option of completely empting out to being run way to short to make significant power.

Our results showed the A code under all circumstances (minus the 4ms test being they both emptied) ended the tests with more fluid in the beaker.

And by more I mean anywhere from 5-20cc difference respectively.

Now I don't know about you but that tells me that the fuel was at a higher pressure at the nozzle (more force behind the fuel) on the A code, shown by more fuel being injected.

Now your statement above about a hybrid having more pressure at diminishing ICP??? I would not want a setup that could not run max icp to my injectors. That to me would be a waste. If you used the above example of the 175 vs the 200 injectors. 175 @ 490 would equal 2.8hp per CC of fuel. The 200 @ 510 would equal 2.55hp per cc of fuel.

In my book A code wins. I have argued this statement for years.

 

[V-Ref]

How many rpm ?

You run that test with 200% nozzles?

 

[TyCorr]

How many rpm ?

You run that test with 200% nozzles?

I think the flaw in that test is that combo is not demanding of hpo.

If we keep this up HRT might show up. Or maybe even Charles.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

RPM is irrelevant(for our injectors)

Capacity is irrelevant as we are not using full capacity. Nor is Nozzle size, as it alone is just a creator for resistance in the system.

Feel free to pick apart at anything you like this is why I personally rarely post anymore.

Nothing but the facts ma'am.

Keep drinking the koolaid:toast:

 

[TARM]

I agree with what you are saying about atomization I worded what I was trying to say very poorly. I actually meant to say the same thing you said in your last post about the that topic.

 

[V-Ref]

Thank you for answering my questions

 

[ja_cain]

Thanks for posting your findings Tim. Does anyone have Cv data on the poppet valve of these injectors to see at what flow rates (oil or fuel) does the delta p become significant. Anyone here using any CFD software to model this? Also, does anyone actually measure oil flow rate when testing the injectors. I suppose you could somehow back calculate the amount of restriction by using the fuel flowrate at different ICP pressures in lieu of actual oil flowrates since fuel flowrate is directly coupled to oil flowrate. That's interesting that the A code out performed the Hybrid at those flowrates. That tells me that the pressure drop isn't as significant as I would think with that nozzle size (oil flowrate). What nozzle size does it take for the Hybrid to surpass the A code at 3100 psi ICP?

 

[ja_cain]

Also, it makes sense to me that an a-code will always win at any given sustained ICP due to the higher ratio IP as long as pressure drop on the oil side doesn't become significant enough to overcome this advantage. We just got CFD software at work and it would be interesting to model this if I could get some dimensions on the oil side. Does anyone have any drawings of the oil side they could send me?

 

[TyCorr]

RPM is irrelevant(for our injectors)

Capacity is irrelevant as we are not using full capacity. Nor is Nozzle size, as it alone is just a creator for resistance in the system.

Feel free to pick apart at anything you like this is why I personally rarely post anymore.

Nothing but the facts ma'am.

Keep drinking the koolaid:toast:

I dont think anyone is trying to "pick apart" what you're saying. I am a.customer,happy at that.

 

[psduser1]

I would agree with you tim, if a guy weren't looking for "max" hp. I think the hybrid is aimed more for the guy trying to go above say 500 hp, just as a number. As in, not necessarily a dd. Having said that, I think most tuners can compensate for larger nozzles and lower ratios, and still make a resonance tune. Depends on how picky the customer is about smoke and manners.

My confusion was based on my not thoroughly reading your earlier posts, not on a basic disagreement with your preferences.