Looking for advice on compound turbos

co04cobra

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,003
Reaction score
10
Location
WV
Tarm, no worries about the side track, and great info as always. Dont stop posting in here fill free to post up anything you want.


What Im thinking. If I switch my whole setup I will put my built motor in at the same time. I will watch around for a 38r. However, my other ?. If I go that route I will probably do 400/400s and go for 700+ Would the the 38r become a limiting factor at this point? Would the s366 become the better option? I have a hypermax mount kit here. As well as the stock stuff so that part really doesnt matter.
 

TARM

New member
Joined
May 19, 2011
Messages
2,439
Reaction score
0
No IMO the HP turbo becoming the limiting factor is usually never the case; More it could be out of balance with the either a too small or a way to large atmosphere. But from what I can tell as far as being the limit or back up the atmosphere is more likely to be the issue in those cases.

Any exhaust that would become an issue for the HP turbo is going to be routed thru the WG around the HP and on to the atmosphere so the HP is literally out of the loop. So in this case the limit would be not having a large enough WG to handle the flow.

I think going to 400s makes total sense going for big numbers like that. The extra air from low to top also makes the issue with the larger nozzles less of a factor. This will also allow you to get more rpms out of it so lower CP. IMO 400s makes sense with any compound setup.

If you do it with all new I think a 38r and 5518 or have Jose or some other builder that deals with garretts mod a 4718 pull off you could hopefully find into a 5518 for a good bit less than a brand new one. IIRC those would be JB so easy /cheap rebuilds.

The nice thing IMO about the 38r as a HP turbo is the small size of its turbine in ratio to its comp wheel. While as a single its a weakness IMO as a compound drive pressure is not an issue on that stage. Keep the 1.0 housing. That plus the faster spool up and reaction of the BB which on the HP will matter I would think. Add in the fact you can use easy and cheap factory parts for the install makes things even better IMO.

If I ever did compounds on a 7.3 for the street that is the setup I would run. 38R/5518

I personally would relocate batteries to the passenger side frame rail to make things easier to get to. V-band connections where ever they can work. Dealing with leaks and blown boots at those kind of boost levels sounds like a royal PITA. Its bad enough with a single turbo with max in the low 50s let alone 75-100 psi setup.
 

co04cobra

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,003
Reaction score
10
Location
WV
Ok, Im going to watch around for a 38r. The 5518 posted earlier in the thread was a BB.(but also 4K new) Couldnt hurt anything to be a BB on the LP side correct? What size housing 1.23 or 1.39?


Ive got to go down to my buddies place that owns big rigs and sift through some turbos.



Next ? is who wants to start building piping for this mess. LOL
 

silverpsd_06

New member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
926
Reaction score
0
Location
Wellsville KS
Using a ball bearing first stage would be too much too.fast and extra money you don't want to spend. I think Charles runs a 1.12 or 1.23 on his gt55

Depends how you want to run it most shops will not do it without the truck in front of them..
 
Last edited:

TARM

New member
Joined
May 19, 2011
Messages
2,439
Reaction score
0
No at most the BB on the HP stage as that what gets the whole thing started. But the atmosphere no reason. I know they just redid the whole Garrett site and now it only lists the gtx version of the 5518 and that comp wheel that is the same wheel etc as the GTX4718. If you compare the two maps you can see how even though they have the same size wheels ( Inducer: 87.80 Exducer: 117.60) the design of the gtx wheel more significantly more air and does so more efficiently. As far as the same efficiency % islands they are about the same width etc. The break down of the GTX wheel is more detailed hence why they look more narrow. If you compare same % size island you can see they tend to match up with the GTX being better. Even though it moves more air it looses nothing on the bottom end. Either one IMO will meet what you need but one can cost way more.

Only way I would go with a GTX is if you some how got a killer deal on one. Otherwise a JB gt5518 or a R if again you get a great price on one. IMO a JB is what I would go for and look for a pull off as you did with your current turbo. Send it off to be upgraded to a GT55 center section's internals and the larger turbine wheel. That for find a cheap 5533 as was on the net a month ago and try it as is and if its too big or wrong comp perf have the comp swapped for the 118 wheel. You could likely sell the 133 wheel and cover some of your costs for the swap.

Since you are going for a big fuel only 700HP+ might as well take what you can get if you get the deal. So below is the maps so we can break down off what you are looking at needing and where/how it will fall in the turbos map ranges.

This is just a guesstimate on my part based on some computing and what people have made for HP from various turbos I could find flow data on.
700HP from a 7.3 from what I can gather from other HP goals will take about 120lb/min of flow. 75lb/min 500hp, 90lb/min 600, 120lb/min 700-725

To get PR break down for total and for each turbo:

Basic Formula for Pressure Ratio (boost +14.7)/14.7=PR (Not accounting for altitude changes, filter restriction, intercooler, piping)

Formula for Pressure Ratio for each Compressor in a Compound Setup: In compounds the turbos individual PRs are multiplied together to get total PR. So if you have the total you divide it by either one comp individual PRs. The Atmosphere Compressor is the easy one to compute along with the total combined PR. So The total PR divided by Atmosphere gives use what the Manifold Comp PR is. With that we can use the standard PR formula to see what it would be making if inlet was standard atmosphere pressure. This is helpful IMO as most people are use to looking at compressor perf by boost as opposed to PR.


Looking at the maps first we have to disregard any of the lb/min on the HP/manifold turbo as its going to be way off as its already dealing with a compressed charge. But what still matters is the PR and its efficiency as that still relevant.

Going with the gt4718 wheel map.

Looking at 120lb/min and then looking the middle more efficient islands it looks like in the 2.4-3.1 range. It will still keep things in the 73-76% range which is still decent. So split it and call it 2.7pr or 25psig.

Looking at the 38R the best range getting the most lb/min for PR is about 2.4-2.6 ratio so 2.5 which is about like it at a single in the 22psig range. When you look at B:D ratios this is a good spot on a 38R.

As you can see they are actually quite balanced as far as PR and how hard they are working. This also puts both of them in the real meaty section of their maps. This is where they are getting the most lb/min@ the best PR.

As PR is what multiples to get you the total manifold PR/Boost why compounding is so effective.

Atmosphere: 2.7pr/25psig
High Pressure: 2.5pr/22psig

Total Manifold: 6.75pr/85psig

Likely have to drop off 3psi for filter, piping inefficiencies, and the IC. May have to tweak numbers up a bit for that.

Obviously this can be played with once you get real world numbers to find what works best for responsiveness, temp, etc.. Go up with the second stage and down with first etc.. I could not find a detailed 38R map with the islands as that would be of more use.

On the turbine side you have first hand experience with how having a turbine that can move more volume more efficiently can increase HP. Doing so even with a comp wheel that technically moves less air per rev as some making less max power (volvo gt4594 vs gt38r). So knowing that in this combo the 47 turbine is the bottle neck going to the larger and more effective 55 wheel should work in a similar manner and effectiveness. The 47 turbine @2.5pr move about 55lb/min @ 68% efficiency vs the 55 turbine moving closer to 70lb/min @ 82% efficiency. Moves more air at less waste about 20% better.

Regardless of everything what I would do if I were you is give Jose @ Forced Inductions a call (256)658-5798. Talk to him about gt5518.gt4718 and what is the cheapest path to get you to the gt55 turbine wheel and the 4718 comp wheel. He does a good number of conversion builds to this combo from what I understand. I am nothing but a "armchair" compound turbo student. I try to learn all I can but its still just academic on my part. Best to have a BTDT countless times giving you the final info on what will/will not be best.

38vs38Rcompressormaps.jpg


GT4718-compmap.jpg



GTX5518R%20Compressor%20Map.jpg
 

davey99ps

New member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
1,266
Reaction score
0
Location
Waterford WI
If your interested, since you already have the hypermax mount, I'd let my h2e go for cheap. Instead of a 38r use the h2e, which was originally why I bought it after the DP article on Nate from unlimited's blue truck. He was running a h2e hp an I forget what he used for q lp. Anyway, pm me if your interested
 

MadDiesel73

New member
Joined
May 23, 2011
Messages
1,153
Reaction score
0
Location
Glen Burnie, Maryland
Yup basicly on the high end 100% > 500hp , 200% > 600hp, 400% > 700hp

The goal for my new setup is 650 but id be happy with anything in the 6's

I think the 467 would make an ok hp. For the money id just do a gated 366
 
Last edited:

co04cobra

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,003
Reaction score
10
Location
WV
Tarm, way over my head on technical end. haha. but Im trying to study on it.

Davey I actually have a H2e here already.

Next ? Mike at MPD is selling these. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23577 To big for a 7.3 compound setup?


My last option I mentioned before, but it would be sending my turbo off now and having billet wheels installed. I dont have to have more top end power. Just still looking for the quicker spool up. I have the itch to tear the motor out of my truck. The rational side of me is saying " its running just find dumbazz dont go and *** it up"


Found this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Garrett-GT4...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c68322107&vxp=mtr
 
Last edited:
Top