Also, you aren't talking about that itty bitty wastegate that comes on various turbines, are you?
mild or hot street build?
- Thread starter brian89
- Start date
Also, you aren't talking about that itty bitty wastegate that comes on various turbines, are you?
brian89
Member
Are 100%'s to small or to big? And i don't know what gate i would use, suggestion?
I have a bit of a problem with them(100 over nozzles). Mattr warned me that they are often rough from machining and aren't exact especially in tuning. They are inconsistent due to being machined up revision of a different nozzle. The 80% nozzle is a clean easy nozzle. I liked my 80's better than my 100's. I think an 80 or 200 over nozzle.
As for.gates, go to tials website and see.what's available. They have something in th 6x mm range, that's what you need.
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brian89
Member
Well I'm glad i know that now, i will probably go with the 250/200's in that case, which means i will probably be goibg with the bigger s467FMW turbo
You can still tune the 200 to whatever you were aiming for in the 100. It'll just do it.cleaner, faster, and with much less injection duration. You can get a clean 425 hp tune on a 200 over nozzle.
PowerstrokeJunkie
Active member
Im running a precision 46mm gate and that SOB opens up alot. The 74mm turbine and .91 a/r is great for responsiveness but it is very quickly over-tasked even in my 400ish hp tow tune. You can clearly hear the gate opening out the exhaust, and i know for a fact that without one with these injectors (250/80) it will kill the turbo fast
OSCS
New member
agreed, mine is awesome i love its responsiveness but that gate stays open.. it simply doesnt flow enough air for a set of 250/100's ask groomzy how long his 366 lasted without a gate :flush:
brian89
Member
So unless i plan on going with a smaller set of injectors i will be better off getting a s467fmw?
OSCS what housing and gate do you have?
OSCS what housing and gate do you have?
I didn't gather that from anything anybody posted. There are several people praising their s366 with a gate and hybrids with nozzles ranging from 80%-100%. Ok, two but you get the idea.
Junkies setup is friggin nice and it hauls ass from what I've been reading.
Junkies setup is friggin nice and it hauls ass from what I've been reading.
JDub
Active member
I'd check to make sure your 2000 has forged connecting rods before you jump into bigger turbos and injectors...
With that said, the HFSB turbocharger we offer from Bell Turbo will support low 500's without the need of a wastegate.
With that said, the HFSB turbocharger we offer from Bell Turbo will support low 500's without the need of a wastegate.
A larger nozzle ( to a point) can allow you to run a much lower CP/tq level and yet still achieve the same peak HP as its spread across a much larger RPM band width. Compare that to a smaller injector which would need to do the same thing but because of its slower and lower total injection amount in a smaller RPM band width. That means it will need a higher TQ/CP level to achieve the same peak HP level.
Below is an example for ref purposes only they are not real numbers:
Goal 500 HP:
100% nozzles:
Peak HP would be 2700 RPM
Peak tq would be 2450 RPM
HP forumla: (tq x rpm)/5252=HP
(tq x 2450)/5252=500 hp
Peak TQ = 1071 ftlb
200% Nozzles:
Peak HP = 3300 rpm
Peak TQ = 3000 rpm
(tq x 3000)/5252=500 hp
Peak TQ= 875 ftlb
So by having a faster ie larger nozzle you can actually make lower CP/TQ to achieve the same power. It being spread out over more RPMs means that much less stress during normal driving.
The down side is that the larger the nozzle the larger effect the same changes in a tune have on them. This means it takes more attention to detail to get the dialed in as it takes smaller adjustments to get things just right.
200% seem to be the balance point between atomization quality , vol per time, and tuners being able to get things setup to give good quality performance without numerous tweaks over and over to get it dialed in. You can get a decent base level with remote tunes and a few tweaks. To put it plainly at todays tuning levels and injector builds it seems to be the sweet spot.
Below is an example for ref purposes only they are not real numbers:
Goal 500 HP:
100% nozzles:
Peak HP would be 2700 RPM
Peak tq would be 2450 RPM
HP forumla: (tq x rpm)/5252=HP
(tq x 2450)/5252=500 hp
Peak TQ = 1071 ftlb
200% Nozzles:
Peak HP = 3300 rpm
Peak TQ = 3000 rpm
(tq x 3000)/5252=500 hp
Peak TQ= 875 ftlb
So by having a faster ie larger nozzle you can actually make lower CP/TQ to achieve the same power. It being spread out over more RPMs means that much less stress during normal driving.
The down side is that the larger the nozzle the larger effect the same changes in a tune have on them. This means it takes more attention to detail to get the dialed in as it takes smaller adjustments to get things just right.
200% seem to be the balance point between atomization quality , vol per time, and tuners being able to get things setup to give good quality performance without numerous tweaks over and over to get it dialed in. You can get a decent base level with remote tunes and a few tweaks. To put it plainly at todays tuning levels and injector builds it seems to be the sweet spot.
PowerstrokeJunkie
Active member
The logic is sound, but the real world mail-order tuning (i have experienced at least) is not.
MadDiesel73
New member
So true.. Next to impossible. i had 1 tune out of 50 i tried that was clean with 250/100's
That's a whole new bag of issues. 100% nozzles are not very easy to tune, as I've been told(by arguably the BEST tunesmith there is) they are rough around the edges of the honework. Not accurately. I'm not saying that's why, but a contribution. We'll.chalk it up to multiple factors of causation.
brian89
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but i thought the waste gate being open was a bad thing? I thought the less the gate opened the better?
The motor was assembled in Aug. '99 so i would guess its forged, but just in case how do i tell?
Tarm i follow what your saying to an extent, one question is what is CP/tq?
My brother said his truck is really smokey even in the "stock" tune, but his are just canned tunes from swamps but live tuning should clean most of that up correct?
PowerstrokeJunkie
Active member
cylinder pressure. It basically makes torque happen. You want a smooth onset of cylinder pressure, and the piston traveling down dissipates the peak cylinder pressure. A sharp "stab" of pressure early on is what does alot of connecting rods in.
You want your turbine to be working at it's maximum potential without overspinning it to dangerous speeds or where it becomes inefficient. A properly set up wastegate will dump as much as necessary to maintain peak turbine efficiency. In this case, it has to open up alot more with our setups due to the rather tight turbine housing.
You want your turbine to be working at it's maximum potential without overspinning it to dangerous speeds or where it becomes inefficient. A properly set up wastegate will dump as much as necessary to maintain peak turbine efficiency. In this case, it has to open up alot more with our setups due to the rather tight turbine housing.
V-Ref
Active member
PSJ and others have nailed it already, but to expound further.
The turbine side of the turbo has a limitations to what it can flow, just like the compressor side of the turbo does.
Relatively smaller turbos (<66mm comp inducer), have lower rotating mass, so they spool at lower rpms. BUT...they usually are paired with "smaller" turbine wheels/turbine housings, that flow less as well. So you'll see most of the smaller S362/366 type setups will be "1:1" up to about 30-35 psi, then the motor will be making more exhaust mass flow then the turbine wheel/housing can accomodate. Back pressure rises, turbo speed goes outside it's intended range, compressor is no longer very efficient...bad stuff.
Relatively larger turbos (>71 mm comp inducer) usually have larger turbine wheel/housing assemblies, that can flow a larger amount of exhaust mass. Because they are larger, they have greater rotating mass, and take more exhaust mass energy/rpm to "spool". You'll see some of the larger fellas are "1:1" as high as 45-50+ psi. All is awesome with the larger turbos...except spool.... in some cases.
So what folks have started to do is run "smaller" turbos that spool quick, but then to keep the turbo alive, and keep BP vs Boost relationships in line, they run a mount with a WG, that is set to "dump" excess drive pressure/exhaust mass energy to your down pipe once you've made your upper rpm power/boost goals.
On talk of nozzle size..and injector spool....turbos are driven by exhaust mass energy. So talk of larger nozzles being able to spool x larger turbo, is really speaking to adding more heat to the exhaust than a smaller injector would at a given rpm range. This is a poor plan IMHO...you'll end up with a hot/smokey truck, and with a turbo that lights like a light switch. Fun, certainly. Cool to bomb around town/beach, tow, and DD. Not for most.
The injector size/type/nozzle and turbo all need to be purchased as a system, and with thought tied to each other....because...well that's what they are on your motor. If you do it piecemeal, without tying A to B to C...well, you'll end up not where you need to be. I'm not saying you need to dump $5k at once....I am recomending you make a plan, where the injector size/type/nozzle and turbo are all thought of together towards a specific goal/use for the truck.
What DP tuner is offering is a custom designed, fit to your platform turbo by one of the best turbo brains in the business. Those line of turbos, already have the math "built in" for the 7.3 platform. All you have to do, is just pick your power goal and go. The turbos are all journal bearing, so when you need to do a CHRA (center housing rotating assembly) rebuild a million miles from now, it's very economical. The BB CHRA often times make replacement of the entire turbo more economical.
There are obviously other "box turbo" choices that have proven to work as well. The GTX4294R is a very well regarded turbo for your goals, but pricey. It is a water cooled CHRA, so that bodes well for longevity of the turbo. It does add a small piece of complexity to the install. The S467 FMW turbo has caught on lately, it's a big burly S400 turbo, that's tough as nails, and comes alive on my truck around 1800-1900 rpm, and I've pushed to the low 50s psi wise. PSJ's setup sounds like a fun truck too. You can definitely do well with a off the shelf turbo.
But if I'm spending your money, I'd rock a Bell turbo. A close second would be the GTX if your budget would permit, and if not, then a S467 FMW. Jake @ Irate sells those turbos too.
I don't have any experience with the Holset or Turbonetics stuff. I know there's folks running those turbos and are happy as well.
A great thing to do pre-purchase would be to ride in a truck with that injector/turbo combo, to ensure it's gonna do all you want it to, so that after you plunk your hard earned cash......you're happy!
Hope this helps, didn't mean to hash out stuff you already were tracking on, if that's the case.
Turbo 50 lb brain dudes...if I'm pointing this guy in the wrong direction, or talking out my arse on any of the stuff above.....fix it:swordfight:
Don't want to steer anyone wrong!
PowerstrokeJunkie
Active member
I guess my new name is PSJ LOL
