**NEW** Power Hungry Insight PRO

[Chatham036]

Are there tables that conflict? Why couldn't you guys with access to both tweak them in conjunction to run perfectly? Maybe you're doing that already?

We do this already.
Majority of tunes from other tuners do not have any issue with the FICM tuning and it actually proves to be a good compliment to one another.

Five years or so ago, prior to working with Bill at PHP, I actually ran Eric's tunes when I purchased my x3 from him. I paired his tunes with the ATLAS40 at the time and it ran absolutely fantastic with the combination.

 

[InnovativeDiesel]

Right, I can usually empty an injector with a stock FICM, with the appropriate PCM changes. The FICM tuning smooths the fueling on larger injectors, better pedal feel, and allows us to dial in the truck a bit more.

The first statement, causing your confusion, is simply reiterating your point. We extract the same amount of fuel with PCM tuning and our FICM tuning. Simple concept of PW, ICP, and Timing. We have no problem commanding enough PW to empty an injector, I haven't seen that as a problem even on 1300+rwhp HEUI applications.

 

[Chatham036]

The issue is that we need more idle and low-load resolution not more pulsewidth everywhere when it comes to bigger nozzles. We can only do so much in the pcm fueling parameters.

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Have you messed with our FICM tuning designed for larger injectors (50% nozzle plus)?

Your concerns mentioned is what we addressed in these files over the FICM tunes for small nozzles (0% - 30%).

For comparison sake to possibly help you understand what I am talking about, it is the the same concept we all do with 7.3 tuning on the base pulsewidth maps when tuning say 250/200 injectors comparative to 160/stock. The pulsewidth base map is reduced to compensate for the mechanical increase in flow rate rate from the nozzle size.

 

[Gearhead]

I didn't know this existed.... but it is exactly what i've been wanting to do on my own and the same method I've always used on the 7.3 and 6.4..

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[Chatham036]

We have no problem commanding enough PW to empty an injector, I haven't seen that as a problem even on 1300+rwhp HEUI applications.

In these situations, the nozzle size of the injector is probably large enough to fully deplete the injector within a "normal" pulse width window (2.0 ms - 2.5 ms).

But what happens when you put say a 30% nozzle on a 250cc injector? Suddenly your output pulse width needs to be closer to 3.0 ms at WOT to fully deplete otherwise you are just leaving power on the table.

If you have found a way to encroach the pw to 3.0 or larger through the PCM tuning alone in attempts to fully deplete the injector, I definitely have not found it... nor looked for it honestly...

_______________

I am finding more and more frequently that people would like a smaller nozzle on a larger injector body because the smaller nozzles will offer better low end and driveability. So we have dove off in ways through tuning to make the injectors fully deplete when these same guys who tow heavy for work want to then build power on the weekends. True best of both worlds as long as you can open the PW wide enough to deplete.

For the record, these are also the guys who I have seen make more power when opening up the FICM tuning. My personal 6.0 with 225/30 injectors included in this.

 

[InnovativeDiesel]

The issue is that we need more idle and low-load resolution not more pulsewidth everywhere when it comes to bigger nozzles. We can only do so much in the pcm fueling parameters.

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Agreed, WOT fueling hasn't been an issue. FICM tuning smooths it out and we can lower PW at idle for big nozzles.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

So from what I am gathering here is that both ******** and ********** are capable of tuning a race truck to make great power without FICM tuning. No issues.

If you want to take said truck and make it streetable and react with manners when driving it around, FICM tuning will help clean up the haze/make the throttle feel better/potentially lessen smoke output at lower RPM.

So in a dedicated competition application, there is really no need for FICM tuning and if running ******** or ********** tuning, it could potentially do more harm than good? If running PHP ecm tuning, there is big gains from the FICM tuning because they are modifying them to fit each other.

Our truck with 350/100 hybrids fuels hard currently with ******** tuning and PHP ficm tuning. Its still a fairly black haze at WOT, which is awesome... means we can go larger in the air category or spray it and see some gain.

My fear is that with the FICM and ECM tuning there is something potentially being lost that the average person would never catch unless they tried other combinations of tuning.

 

[Power Hungry]

One other issue that FICM tuning addresses is the ability to adjust the SOI limitations, injection ramp rates, inductive heating, and other functions and limiters not available through the ECM. Plus it allows for ECM tuning that doesn't require the spoofing of the ICP transfer function or Desired ICP tables, which helps provide valid diagnostic data when datalogging.

I wouldn't argue that, from a WOT standpoint, ECM tuning alone is capable of making good power. It's just that tuning is more that just what you achieve with your foot on the floor, and drivability is at least as important (if not more so) then just a high HP number. Ask anyone that has run a certain tuner's files (particularly the M/T files) and has had to deal with a ridiculously sensitive throttle off idle. It doesn't matter that the file might make good power when you can't drive through a parking lot without the truck lurching everywhere.

Like 7.3L tuning, the injection pulsewidth tables are an integral part of tuning for any non-stock injectors. It just happens that the FICM holds those tables instead of the ECM, and that ultimately makes FICM tuning just as important as ECM tuning.

 

[Chatham036]

So from what I am gathering here is that both ******** and ********** are capable of tuning a race truck to make great power without FICM tuning. No issues.

As long as the injector can fully deplete within the limitation for PW in the PCM, yes. Full power can absolutely be had without FICM tuning.

If you want to take said truck and make it streetable and react with manners when driving it around, FICM tuning will help clean up the haze/make the throttle feel better/potentially lessen smoke output at lower RPM.

Correct. What would even more so benefit street manors is to put smaller nozzles on the injector to better atomize the fuel while giving better control of injection.

So in a dedicated competition application, there is really no need for FICM tuning and if running ******** or ********** tuning, it could potentially do more harm than good? If running PHP ecm tuning, there is big gains from the FICM tuning because they are modifying them to fit each other.

From my experimentation, it all comes down to the combination of displacement to nozzle size of the injector. A larger injector nozzle does not need to extend the pulse width as far to deplete the injector. Smaller nozzles need more pw to deplete. This is where I have seen gains at WOT from FICM tuning.

If you are fully depleting the injector within the PW from PCM tuning alone, you will see better results from the Econ FICM tune than the ATLAS80 - Herc.

The larger FICM tunes will open the injector up farther than needed causing the oil rails to bleed off after the injector depletes.

My fear is that with the FICM and ECM tuning there is something potentially being lost that the average person would never catch unless they tried other combinations of tuning.

The only way to assure this is is not happening would be to have the vehicle live tuned. Changing the PCM tuning from one vendor to another will not prove anything in this regard.

The best way for you to gain an idea for what is happening, and how to dial it in correctly would be to have your injectors flowed and find out at what PW the injector is supposed to deplete.
Then monitor your PW on a scanner / datalogger to see how far off from the flow bench values you are.

If the flow bench says your injectors deplete in 2.0 ms and you are seeing 2.4 ms at WOT... you will want to back your FICM tuning down to the Econ or have your tuner pull PW out in the tune to get you to the 2.0 ms.

In the inverse, if your injectors flow bench to deplete at 2.4 ms and you are datalogging only 2.0 ms PW, you can step up to the Atlas40 FICM tune and test again. If you can attain 2.2 ms PW with the atlas40, step up to the atlas80. Continue to step up until you hit the desired depletion for the injector based off the flow bench value. In this situation is where the limitations of the PCM come into effect. You can only open the pulse width up so wide through PCM tuning alone. We as tuners hit a cap.

FICM tuning gets us around that cap to 'unlock' every last horsepower possible.
When dialed in correctly between FICM and PCM tuning (like mentioned above) there is absolutely no down side. Nothing potentially being lost. Only gained.

 

[Luke@MillerPerformance]

One other issue that FICM tuning addresses is the ability to adjust the SOI limitations, injection ramp rates, inductive heating, and other functions and limiters not available through the ECM. Plus it allows for ECM tuning that doesn't require the spoofing of the ICP transfer function or Desired ICP tables, which helps provide valid diagnostic data when datalogging.

I wouldn't argue that, from a WOT standpoint, ECM tuning alone is capable of making good power. It's just that tuning is more that just what you achieve with your foot on the floor, and drivability is at least as important (if not more so) then just a high HP number. Ask anyone that has run a certain tuner's files (particularly the M/T files) and has had to deal with a ridiculously sensitive throttle off idle. It doesn't matter that the file might make good power when you can't drive through a parking lot without the truck lurching everywhere.

Like 7.3L tuning, the injection pulsewidth tables are an integral part of tuning for any non-stock injectors. It just happens that the FICM holds those tables instead of the ECM, and that ultimately makes FICM tuning just as important as ECM tuning.

What is stopping your FICM tunes from being able to flashed from the Insight Pro? As long as the file is being purchased through PHP there's really no difference from the dealer FICM tuner I have right now other than ease of distribution to the end user. And if we have that, why not license based custom FICM tuning in Minotaur?

Correctly if I'm wrong but I look at this from an EFILive point of view. We buy licenses or Autocals that go directly back to EFILive to support their work, but we are free to do what we need to in V7.5 for tuning. Insight Pro is your Autocal (but way better), Minotaur is your V7.5.

 

[KCTurbos]

The issue is that we need more idle and low-load resolution not more pulsewidth everywhere when it comes to bigger nozzles. We can only do so much in the pcm fueling parameters.

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BINGO!!! This has always been my point/issue with tuning.

With just SCT tuning I run into the following with my truck and customers (especially with bigger injectors):

I can get tunes that have a very linear power band, idle good, but not able to reach high PW at WOT

OR... they can achieve High PW at wot, Idle good, but have a horrible light switch affect

OR... they can achieve high PW at WOT, have a Linear power band, but don't idle for crap.

These issues obviously are a bigger problem for daily driven trucks with larger injectors who want a good idle, no light switch affect, and great top end power.

I have found that with custom FICM tuning I am able to achieve all 3 at the same time (good idle, linear power, and top out power) I have tunes from Gear.head, IDP, TSD, Wildman, PHP, WPE, Backroad performance, Etc.

It is nice to take one of those SCT tunes and use a FICM tuner to "dial it in" instead of bugging the SCT tuner writers with lots of revisions. I can take a 2.0ms SCT tune and bump it up to 2.4ms by switching FICM tunes and it leaves everything else the same. I can also take a 2.4ms tune and pull it back to about 1.6ms clean running street tune with a FICM tuner and leave everything else the same. It is great for fine tuning fuel/power while leaving shifting, idling, etc all the same.

 

[Gearhead]

3ms exceeds the mechanical injection window above 2600 or so rpms except when using nitrous.

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[Chatham036]

correct. The numbers I used in reply to you were arbitrary for proof of concept.

The desired pw will change per truck / injector combination.. but will not be 3.0 ms above 3000 rpm.

 

[Chatham036]

Matt / Eric - All the FICM tuning conceptual conversation aside, I would like to know what you two think about the ability to use the insight CTS2 and CS2 as a programmer for your tuning of the 6.0L.

Is this something yall can get on board with?

 

[Chatham036]

A little bit more information for everyone reading this post.. I just attached an image from Minotaur to give you guys an idea for how adaptable and intuitive it is.

The black curve on the top two windows is from the VXCF4H3 calibration. The red file you see is our 40 hp file.
As you can see from this, by simply increasing the values on the top side of the map, you will get more fuel. More fuel, more power.

The bottom two windows are the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. On shift maps, they only have two axis rather than the three axis like the fuel maps.
The values across the bottom is your a/d counts for your throttle pedal. Think of this as a throttle percentage. With this you will see as the pedal goes further down, the speed required for the shift to happen also rises.

Light throttle, this tune will shift around 8 mph. At heavy throttle, this tune will shift around 26 mph for the 1-2 shift.
Same concept for the 2-3 shift, 3-5 shift, and 5-6 shift.

If you look to the window which borders the left side of the screen, you will see just a fraction of the graphs you can open up and modify.

If this seems overly complicated to you, it very well may be.
But I can promise that 95% of the powerstroke enthusiasts who get on this page are well enough knowledgeable with the 6.0 platform to adjust or tweak the tunes.

When you purchase one of the Minotaur packages, we will give you a couple files to start with so you can see how to make a street file, tow file, etc.
From that point, the sky is the limit. You will have all of the same options available to you that the leading tuners have available to them.

Plus we can always be of service to help

I might even be able to talk Bill, the godfather of PowerStroke tuning, into doing a complementary 8 hour group lecture on the tuning foundation with the purchase of a Minotaur package.

 

[DiehardFordguy]

A little bit more information for everyone reading this post.. I just attached an image from Minotaur to give you guys an idea for how adaptable and intuitive it is.

The black curve on the top two windows is from the VXCF4H3 calibration. The red file you see is our 40 hp file.
As you can see from this, by simply increasing the values on the top side of the map, you will get more fuel. More fuel, more power.

The bottom two windows are the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. On shift maps, they only have two axis rather than the three axis like the fuel maps.
The values across the bottom is your a/d counts for your throttle pedal. Think of this as a throttle percentage. With this you will see as the pedal goes further down, the speed required for the shift to happen also rises.

Light throttle, this tune will shift around 8 mph. At heavy throttle, this tune will shift around 26 mph for the 1-2 shift.
Same concept for the 2-3 shift, 3-5 shift, and 5-6 shift.

If you look to the window which borders the left side of the screen, you will see just a fraction of the graphs you can open up and modify.

If this seems overly complicated to you, it very well may be.
But I can promise that 95% of the powerstroke enthusiasts who get on this page are well enough knowledgeable with the 6.0 platform to adjust or tweak the tunes.

When you purchase one of the Minotaur packages, we will give you a couple files to start with so you can see how to make a street file, tow file, etc.
From that point, the sky is the limit. You will have all of the same options available to you that the leading tuners have available to them.

Plus we can always be of service to help

I might even be able to talk Bill, the godfather of PowerStroke tuning, into doing a complementary 8 hour group lecture on the tuning foundation with the purchase of a Minotaur package.

Is this from the standard edition or pro? Is the PRO just the ability to sell the tunes? It looks like fun!!

 

[6.0 Tech]

This is very interesting. I would like to try tuning myself, however, from what ive heard of yhe sct tuning software, is that if you dont know what you are doing, you get in trouble real quick. This seems a little more fool proof.

Quick question, and sorry to derail, but is the minotaur software available separately from the edge pro? And is it avaiable now?

 

[nighthawk285]

^^^Yes it is, and has been for awhile since it's the same software used for 7.3s. If you want to play with it a little bit, PHP even offers a demo version on their site with two dummy calibrations here....scroll down to the "More Info" section. You'll probably want to look at the user's guide too.

http://store.gopowerhungry.com/en/t...-edition.html?search_query=minotaur&results=5

I did forget to ask this in the other thread Jay so I'll ask it here. When you guys say:

The Minotaur™ Tuning Package comes with everything you need to start tuning your own 7.3L truck. Your purchase includes:
Minotaur™ Software (1 license)
MDF (definition) of your choice
All of our standard calibrations for the requested PCM Strategy
Hydra Chip with Extension Cable

Will that carry over to the 6.0 too? So that included in the purchase of the software, we get all of the baseline PHP calibrations that go with it as well???? Am I reading that correctly? If so, that's a hell of a deal! I never factored that into the cost before but if I were to buy 1 of every tune on the drop down list, that's $1650 just in tunes.....and if I'm reading that right, you guys "throw those in" with the purchase of the Minotaur software. Or....since the description is still primarily 7.3 based, I'm dreaming chit up LOL.

 

[Chatham036]

Is this from the standard edition or pro? Is the PRO just the ability to sell the tunes? It looks like fun!!

The image above is synonymous with both. The pro version can simply open all of the calibrations on the 6.0l where the standard edition will only open and modify the calibration from your specific vehicle.

 

[jeremiahmercier]

We'll here's a funny question, can this thing be used as stereo and navigation as well? I'd fit it right into the din in the dash then, and not have to have some silly second screen somewhere blocking more view

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18