Options for Compounds with a 38R

[Vengeance]

Docbar, hook up with the Charles sometime and go for a ride in his truck.

 

[DocBar]

I think the lack of hands on experience is hurting me more than anything. I'm not a great book learner. I need to be able to see what I'm reading about used in practical application.

 

[DocBar]

Docbar, hook up with the Charles sometime and go for a ride in his truck.

I'd absolutely love to.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I took the liberty of pairing down the top 25 (26??) PSD Fuel only trucks to just the guys running the 7.3.

Top 25 DYNO HP PSDs - FUEL ONLY
14. Mike Ontiveros (blowby) 717 rwhp (7.3) (Corrected)
15. Jason Kubis (thuglike) 707 hp (7.3)
17. Brian Jelich (powersmoker) 703 hp (7.3).
19. Jim Legg 678 hp 02 (7.3)
24. Charles Saunders (chillin) 644.2 hp (7.3) uncorrected
26. Matt Maier (mattman347) 640.4Hp (7.3) Dyno Dynamics

.

Blowby is running 400%
Thuglike is running a 200% I think..... not sure what dyno that was on, or if he has any 248c experience.
Powersmoker - again 400%
Not sure what Jim Legg is running for tips - but pretty sure that was on the BDP rollers
Chucky - 400% tips on a 248c
Mattman347 - 200% tips on BDP rollers.

 

[Lowdown89]

My puller with a 3.0 charger and 350/200s was Making in the 650 range... It was not a smokey pig either... Go with twins 350/200s and you'll have a fun clean truck very capable of 650.. If you want more power at the truck add a single stage... Just my opinion..

I really like this option, to me this would make one hell of a fun daily driver that's still capable of handling the towing when you need it... By the way it was nice meeting you Saturday docbar. The truck looks like its running pretty good as it sits...

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I think the lack of hands on experience is hurting me more than anything. I'm not a great book learner. I need to be able to see what I'm reading about used in practical application.

And this is the main reason that I wanted to urge you to be cautious.

My advice starting out - build a set of responsive compounds and install a set of 200% tips and get it dialed in and running like a top - if you want more - then its just a nozzle swap and a whole lot of tuning away.

I pretty much urge most people to take baby steps - if you build a new motor - start with 200% tips and get all the bugs worked out - then step up kind of deal. For instance - right now it seems like you have a solid setup with a 38R and smallish set of injectors - it has taken a while to get the bugs worked out, but now that you have you can feel better when taking that next step - it saves so much time in troubleshooting and headache that it worth it to me for the small price to pay in extra parts over time.

I think you have a whole lot better feel for what you are getting yourself into now that you have been there done that and have been on the boards for a while. Take your time, plan it out, and you will do well.

 

[Big Bore]

I would skip the 38r though.. Too much bs to incorporate a wastegate.. I'd look into a t4 setup s362 fmw , s364 , s366 something from wop or bell turbo

Maybe I missed something, but how is welding a wastegate flange to a turbine housing for an existing turbo that uses stock location and piping more work than swapping out an entire turbo and mounting system that will also require exhaust, intake and IC pipe modifications?

 

[DocBar]

And this is the main reason that I wanted to urge you to be cautious.

My advice starting out - build a set of responsive compounds and install a set of 200% tips and get it dialed in and running like a top - if you want more - then its just a nozzle swap and a whole lot of tuning away.

I pretty much urge most people to take baby steps - if you build a new motor - start with 200% tips and get all the bugs worked out - then step up kind of deal. For instance - right now it seems like you have a solid setup with a 38R and smallish set of injectors - it has taken a while to get the bugs worked out, but now that you have you can feel better when taking that next step - it saves so much time in troubleshooting and headache that it worth it to me for the small price to pay in extra parts over time.

I think you have a whole lot better feel for what you are getting yourself into now that you have been there done that and have been on the boards for a while. Take your time, plan it out, and you will do well.

Jason, I'd probably end up kickin myself for changing it!! It really is set up great right now.

 

[TARM]

I have not actually thought about it directly but I have to admit if I had gone all out from the very beginning with my build I would be lossing my mind.

I started with what I thought was a engine that was in perfect condition. Thought it did not have anything mechanically wrong with it. But as I installed injectors, push rods, valve springs, HPOP, fuel system, etc things just started popping up and showing their ugly heads. IPR valve, ICP sensor, water pump. Then I had things that came about from the upgrades themselves but again had to all be diagnosed through all the other stuff as well. Cracked nozzle, boost leaks(long term I never realized until I just pulled the IC to swap in a hypermax unit.

I easily spent 2x the time it took to install everything diagnosing and tracing out issues.

The more complicated the upgrades would have been and the less experience I would have had with what to expect the more of a nightmare it would have been to try and get everything correct.

I can say I have learned so much and to be completely honest even though so of it was quite frustrating I over all had a great time and learned a large amount. It will significantly effect how well future upgrades and work on my 7.3 and over all vehicle go.

I am in a good position. I have 2 other vehicles that my wife and I can drive that fit everybody. If my Excursion is down for weeks or months we are not greatly inconvenienced. Doing work and upgrades on my X is a hobby for me. I enjoy it. If it was my only DD I would likely have a very different outlook and conclusion on how everything went and how much I enjoyed it. I think that is always something to keep in mind.

If I stay with the HEUI 7.3 in this particular vehicle( I will likely always have some type of truck with a 7.3 in it for the foreseeable future) the next big upgrades will be compounds, eventually going up to 400% nozzles, head work and bottom end rebuild. Based on my current knowledge it will be something in the medium performance street range. Around 64-68mm manifold with a 1.0 housing (possibly a stock DMAX VGT turbo or aftermarket with something like the GT5518 or one of the custom Garrett builds like Force Inductions puts out. Something much like my current gtx4294r that I can do anything with that has the least amount of negative side effects and the most positives for me. Very fast spool up, good top end with a very broad rpm band up up to 4500 RPM redline limiter set. Can tow, run large tires whatever. With WG and tune adjustments can run 500hp to 700HP never exceeding 1200 ftlb tq preferably 1100 ftlb. No surging issues regardless of load or throttle position. I certainly want to work out a full electronic control of the waste gate system. Boost at these level IMO for ideal performance needs to be control per trans gear and rpm level. That's my initial plans anyways.

 

[DocBar]

Tarm, you have ambitous goals. I wish you luck with them.

I'm going to approach compounds like a cougar stalking a deer. I'm going to save my pennies, get everything together, then be prepared to have the truck down for as long as it takes. It will be my DD when it's all said and done, but I want to be able to take my time and get it right before it is. Research, research, research. Then I'll ask a lot of questions to the turbo guru's and try my damnedest to get

the least amount of negative side effects and the most positives for me. Very fast spool up, good top end with a very broad rpm band up up to 4500 RPM redline limiter set. Can tow, run large tires whatever. With WG and tune adjustments can run 500hp to 700HP never exceeding 1200 ftlb tq preferably 1100 ftlb. No surging issues regardless of load or throttle position.

I'll also plan for contingencies and be flexible with my goals and I don't want to get locked in on X turbo or Y % injector or Z HPOP. It might take me some time, but both me and the truck will get there.riest:

 

[MadDiesel73]

I think with oil and tuning I'll get 600 with 250/100's Well see.. Would be cool don't think that's been done yet..

 

[V-Ref]

I think with oil and tuning I'll get 600 with 250/100's Well see.. Would be cool don't think that's been done yet..

I'd put money on you doing that and then some. And it will be very cool. 600+ hp and uber clean.

My personally held opinion is our platform (and diesels in general) are overfueled and o2 deficient, because bigger fuel/oil is is easier to reach than bigger air (procharger/compounds, head work, cams, etc) is for most of us. You'll be one of the first (of many I hope) that proves it!

 

[TARM]

For me if I set a goal by definition it will be ambitious. Not necessarily in the way it may sound such as complicated or over the top but maybe in squeezing all I can from something or going a different path to the same or more ideal goal.

I have some ideals of how to use the electronic control or the wg in a compound to use it in more simplistic way I had planned for a progressive NOS programmer. I think it should work but we will not know till its done and we see numbers and it will hopefully have DD usability.

 

[TARM]

I'd put money on you doing that and then some. And it will be very cool. 600+ hp and uber clean.

My personally held opinion is our platform (and diesels in general) are overfueled and o2 deficient, because bigger fuel/oil is is easier to reach than bigger air (procharger/compounds, head work, cams, etc) is for most of us. You'll be one of the first (of many I hope) that proves it!

I think this is likely true but more so on the bottom end then opposite on teh top. As well as proper refined use of waste gates or even using waste gates at all. Look how its almost nonexistent in anything but compounds or those running big NOS. Electronic controllers are a very rare thing indeed in the 7.3 world. Efficiently compressed air cool dense air charge IMO will make a difference. I have also been looking into a lot of the head work that goes into making a diesel head perform. Things they do to combat our almost no existent head volume since we have little runner to speak of so no air colum.

Looking at our piping with compounds and the spaghetti bowl of piping twisting and turning to work in out limited space I wonder about air flow. Most importantly air velocity. As has been said before its likely all in the details. Getting all the little things to be tweaked and setup to an ideal state. The synergy may produce so very significant gains. Who knows.

 

[V-Ref]

I may have missed it, but did anybody pull 650rwhp on fuel with a 200% nozzle on a 248C?

If so, good work. If not, we might lay off the 200% bandwagon when it comes time to actually make 650hp.

I've never done it myself, so I won't pretend to say what it takes.

Thanks for posting this. I've come to the conclusion that even a TRUE/Factual/Actual 600+ hp fuel only 7.3 DD is a bit of a unicorn. Tough reality check to come to grip with....

And I've never done it myself But hope to someday! Those that have tell us how!

Sorry for the derail OP.

 

[TARM]

Thanks for posting this. I've come to the conclusion that even a TRUE/Factual/Actual 600+ hp fuel only 7.3 DD is a bit of a unicorn. Tough reality check to come to grip with....

And I've never done it myself But hope to someday! Those that have tell us how!

Sorry for the derail OP.

Without NOS how many times have we heard Charles make very similar statements. Many thinking they are making big numbers only to find out they are quite a bit lower when they get on the dyno or hit the track and get a actual accurate weight. Whatever somewhat accurate way of real world measurement.


I look forward to hopefully Dave and the guys at Swamps now that they have the engine dyno doing a engine vs a couple well know wheel dynos to see what are actual drive line losses % really are with these trucks.

 

[Charles]

I'd put money on you doing that and then some. And it will be very cool. 600+ hp and uber clean.

My personally held opinion is our platform (and diesels in general) are overfueled and o2 deficient, because bigger fuel/oil is is easier to reach than bigger air (procharger/compounds, head work, cams, etc) is for most of us. You'll be one of the first (of many I hope) that proves it!

A smaller nozzle makes that situation worse, not better. Power per power a 100% nozzle is going to be making MORE smoke than a 200. Every day, all day.

The 100% nozzle will have to hold the injector open much longer than the 200 to inject the same quantity of fuel, so it will have to spray later, making more smoke and more heat to produce the same power.

And all of that will happen at an absolute power output far below what the 200% is capable of.

To sum up, the 100 will make less maximum power, and will smoke more and run hotter doing it...



And without an oxidizer, or the world's smallest set of compounds and a super low rpm peak power point, a 100 is never going to grace 600rwhp on a legitimate dyno in a 7.3L engine.

 

[MadDiesel73]

I don't know well see Charles .. I do agree with you and will be going to 200's and I understand what your saying completely. But I put down 553 on 37's with 2400 psi and falling on innovative diesels dyno with a caned swamps tow tune.. I don't think 600 is out of the question with some 33's and a srp 1.1 or twins.. And a higher fueling tune..

 

[TARM]

I think a more correct answer would be that using no more fuel than a 100% noozle can inject in 3ms the goal is 600hp. I think that is totally doable.

I need to dig up those threads where the group was discussing the reasons of why larger not smaller nozzles not only made more power but were cooler, better mpg, etc....

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I think a more correct answer would be that using no more fuel than a 100% noozle can inject in 3ms the goal is 600hp. I think that is totally doable.

I need to dig up those threads where the group was discussing the reasons of why larger not smaller nozzles not only made more power but were cooler, better mpg, etc....

I think its optimistic to expect 600hp out of a 100% tip. I don't have a chart handy for a 100%, but there is not much difference between that and an 80% - thats roughly 210-215cc of fuel in a 1000 count test - to achieve 600hp that is pushing nearly 2.8hp/cc.... that is higher than I would say the HEUI injection system is normally capable of and wouldn't expect anyone that could achieve that to be typical results - but I'd love to be proven wrong.