Proof why no one needs 100% nozzles on 160cc injectors

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

We have been building/selling 160/30% injectors for a while now. Many happy customers to date. We get two common questions about our 160/30's

• "why just a 30% nozzle?"
• "why pay more for these than the 160/stock nozzle injector?"

Hopefully this will clear up some confusion. And I'm sure there will be some that ask why do our 160's flow 170? We always build in a small buffer to every set. As most injector builders do.

Also remember our 160/30's are priced anywhere from $200-380 under our competitors 160/100's.

All test we perform here have 65psi fuel side feed and 3000psi hpo side feed.

YouTube Video

 

[neverkickn]

The test range was pretty static. Obviously when injectors are actually being used the conditions are much more dynamic. Are you saying that the 30% nozzles will flow fuel as fast as a 100% nozzle, or simply that a 30% nozzle will empty an otherwise stock AC injector at max duration?

 

[purplepstroke]

No wonder why my 230/100s from you made 573hp. Thanks for a great injector!

 

[smoker00]

Nice seeing stuff side by side..

Nice work tim..

 

[Big Calo]

The test range was pretty static. Obviously when injectors are actually being used the conditions are much more dynamic. Are you saying that the 30% nozzles will flow fuel as fast as a 100% nozzle, or simply that a 30% nozzle will empty an otherwise stock AC injector at max duration?

Very nice test! that's really interesting, but I have the same question as neverkickin.

What would be the flow at say 3000RPM, 3500RPM, or even 4000RPM, everything else remaining constant? I know there are a lot of variables that play into it as well to maintain the balancing act of atomization, HPO supply, fuel supply, (as in needing to go upgrade supporting mods just to keep up with the injector). Would be interesting to also see a set of 80% tossed in there and variable RPM range as well.

Good job guys was an interesting watch for sure.

 

[Nobody Special]

It seems misleading to me.

I'd sure hope that two injectors with equal capacity should be able to put out exactly the same amount of fuel at such a high pulse width and low "RPM" over 1000 events. I'd fully expect the "Brand X" injector to be empty on each injection event in your test while the 30% nozzle is just able to squeeze out the fuel in that time.

 

[UNLIMITED_DIESEL]

This test is bogus. Test them again side by side @ 2.5ms and 2.0ms. The 100% still wins...

2.5 the 100% is empty while the 30% is squeezing out 145

2.0 the 100% is at 150 and the 30 is lucky to do 115

The 30% nozzles are great for the majority of customers, but you can't say that the 30's are the greatest thing for everyone. The 80's and the 100's all have their place in the market. Different strokes for different folks, pick the injector that works best for your application.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

I'm going to do my best to answer everyone's questions, and respond to statements in one post.

The test range was pretty static. Obviously when injectors are actually being used the conditions are much more dynamic. Are you saying that the 30% nozzles will flow fuel as fast as a 100% nozzle, or simply that a 30% nozzle will empty an otherwise stock AC injector at max duration?

Testing is done the only way benches operate. Set RPM, PW, Count and run test. This will tell you if said injector is (A) outputting properly and (B) balanced with others in a set.

What we are demonstrating is that with adequate PW given (in this case 3.2MS/PW) both injectors have ample time to empty. With that point made the 30% will offer a better quality injection (ATOMIZATION).

Nice seeing stuff side by side..

Nice work tim..

This is the only way to show TRUE results. We have been doing it for years in our own testing and when customers send in their own injectors from "other" companies to have us modify them or correct issues.

Very nice test! that's really interesting, but I have the same question as neverkickin.

What would be the flow at say 3000RPM, 3500RPM, or even 4000RPM, everything else remaining constant? I know there are a lot of variables that play into it as well to maintain the balancing act of atomization, HPO supply, fuel supply, (as in needing to go upgrade supporting mods just to keep up with the injector). Would be interesting to also see a set of 80% tossed in there and variable RPM range as well.

Good job guys was an interesting watch for sure.

We can, and have done these tests. But in this situation we feel the end user purchasing/running this size injector spends little to no time at/above 3500RPM. The 80% does hold the max output (170cc) into a slightly smaller PW. But we save them for our 175cc injectors. Each set we build has a distinct purpose. We don't just slap parts together. We also custom build sets for specific applications as the need arises.

It seems misleading to me.

I'd sure hope that two injectors with equal capacity should be able to put out exactly the same amount of fuel at such a high pulse width and low "RPM" over 1000 events. I'd fully expect the "Brand X" injector to be empty on each injection event in your test while the 30% nozzle is just able to squeeze out the fuel in that time.

I would expect nothing different from you.
Its funny you state "HIGH" PW and "LOW" RPM. This setup we build for the consumer that has little to no upgrades at the time of purchase.

HIGH PW, I still see much higher coming from tuners still today. LOW RPM, this setup is not designed to turn 3500+RPM's. If the customer comes to us asking for a high RPM setup, we guide him/her into a different setup.

Unlike some shops that have customers call and state they will be towing at high altitude and the shop recommends and sells them a set of 400/400's. Yep we hear about it when they can not get their new injectors to do what they wanted.

This test is bogus. Test them again side by side @ 2.5ms and 2.0ms. The 100% still wins...

2.5 the 100% is empty while the 30% is squeezing out 145

2.0 the 100% is at 150 and the 30 is lucky to do 115

The 30% nozzles are great for the majority of customers, but you can't say that the 30's are the greatest thing for everyone. The 80's and the 100's all have their place in the market. Different strokes for different folks, pick the injector that works best for your application.

First off, I agree with every statement you made in bold red.

Now not sure about tuners you use, but the ones I am affiliated with I can say without worry they do not and would not tune a set of 160cc injector down to 2.0 MS/PW(for a normal tune).

I have always looked at what parameters are available, within reason, in a specific setup.

Lets discuss for a moment what 2.0 MS/PW would do for us.
2.0MS would allow for a higher rpm operation. Do we need that in a truck with 160cc of fuel to burn??
With 2.0MS we can now run out of the range of our factory camshaft and head flow. So where are the gains??

If a customer calls us and states he has a setup made to run higher rpms and still wants sub 200cc sized injectors, guess what we have some thing for him. But that is a 1 in 1,000 customer if that.

And take all of the 160/100's and turn the RPMs up like some are asking and they drop like a rock. ALL of them that have come through here.

And I am sorry I do not have 2.5 info available. Will 2.6 do??

YouTube Video

How many of you are running under 2.6MS/PW?? I can bet not many with this type of setup.
:thumbsup:

 

[Gearhead]

30% are a good fit for some people and I have personally pushed them. Sometimes however, I have found that the 80% are actually cleaner because of the manufacturing process used and under towing conditions the 80% run slightly cooler than the 30% at the same power output.

 

[Dan V]

Does this hold true for only the 160/30 reman's?

 

[Big Calo]

Maybe I can put this to words, and make sense.

Obviously we have all seen the results of a long drawn out injection event, i.e. - black smoke, high EGT, ect. but is it possible to have one that is too quick? I know its by far not really practical I would say, but with some of the tuning being perfected for 200% nozzles, if they were paired with say a 160cc injector would there be any gains to that where the injector would empty in say 1ms PW?

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Maybe I can put this to words, and make sense.

Obviously we have all seen the results of a long drawn out injection event, i.e. - black smoke, high EGT, ect. but is it possible to have one that is too quick? I know its by far not really practical I would say, but with some of the tuning being perfected for 200% nozzles, if they were paired with say a 160cc injector would there be any gains to that where the injector would empty in say 1ms PW?

I would be willing to bet a tuner would not even touch a injecor that could empty in 1ms of PW.

I run right @ .9 to 1ms of PW and ICP @ 1600 going down the road @70. At a idle I am right around 1ms of PW this is with ICP @ around 475 to 500 PSI.

I injector that could empty in 1ms of PW would be a Injector that could not be tuned right.. It would not work imho..

On Edit: The Injector are 300/200 hybrids.

 

[Nobody Special]

I would expect nothing different from you.

Since you seem to know me......

HIGH PW, I still see much higher coming from tuners still today. LOW RPM, this setup is not designed to turn 3500+RPM's. If the customer comes to us asking for a high RPM setup, we guide him/her into a different setup.

I agree completely on the too-high pulse width statement from "tuners". I see it very often. However, my point being that if a person were to do a test with four 160-ish CC injectors of equal capacity - one with a stock nozzle and the others with a 30%, 100%, and even 400% - run at, say, 5.0mS ACTUAL at 3000 RPM ( 5.0mS isn't possible in a truck at that RPM, but on a flow bench have at it), and 3000 PSI, they would ALL fill your graduated cylinders the same amount after 1000 shots.......

Your test proves nothing other than the capacity of the injector is the same between the two. I like Nate's idea.

Unlike some shops that have customers call and state they will be towing at high altitude and the shop recommends and sells them a set of 400/400's. Yep we hear about it when they can not get their new injectors to do what they wanted.

You will never, EVER see me tell somebody that 400/400 injectors will work well for ANYTHING. I QUIT tuning the 7.3L commercially/remotely because of unscrupulous businesses that would convince people that anything with a nozzle size of larger than 100% is completely streetable on the first iteration of tuning attempts....it just ain't happening - especially when remotely writing calibrations. I won't touch them because 90% of the people who read forums and see that someone is running 400% nozzles somewhat successfully will never be happy on their daily commute with kids in the back seat and groceries under the topper.

 

[mwx5]

This thread seems like a vendor trying to drum up business to me. Which is fine I guess. Lots of good points why the test really doesn't show much.
I did my research and went with 160/100% in my truck. They run very clean and cool no matter what I do with the truck and overall I am tickled with them.
160/30% seem pointless to me given the nozzles cost the same as the 100% (from some vendors anyway). Go larger and control with tuning. Pretty simple.
Just my opinion, I have never ran the 160/30% and I don't plan to.

Your test proves nothing other than the capacity of the injector is the same between the two. I like Nate's idea.

You will never, EVER see me tell somebody that 400/400 injectors will work well for ANYTHING. I QUIT tuning the 7.3L commercially/remotely because of unscrupulous businesses that would convince people that anything with a nozzle size of larger than 100% is completely streetable on the first iteration of tuning attempts....it just ain't happening - especially when remotely writing calibrations. I won't touch them because 90% of the people who read forums and see that someone is running 400% nozzles somewhat successfully will never be happy on their daily commute with kids in the back seat and groceries under the topper.

--Excellent-- post.

 

[V-Ref]

Unlimited 400cc/200% hybrids + Gearhead tuning + S467.7=Towing friggin' machine

Haven't towed 10K+ at elevation with it to be fair though.

I've never ran smaller than 200% nozzles....I'm just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event. My truck idles near stock, cold weather performance/starting like stock, 550-600 egts on flat ground at 65 mph unloaded. Makes more power than you can use on the street as a DD, and then historically averages 18-19 mpg as a ZF6 truck.

What advantages are there to smaller than 200% nozzles? Honest question.

Did I just luck out with my injector builder/tuner product relationship?

 

[Justin@DP-Tuner]

Unlike some shops that have customers call and state they will be towing at high altitude and the shop recommends and sells them a set of 400/400's. Yep we hear about it when they can not get their new injectors to do what they wanted.

We see this ALL the time. I can't help but feel bad for the customer, as he just about wants to burn his truck to the ground because it is no longer useful for anything other than the track, when he was promised a great running daily driver/tow rig from the injector builder.

 

[Dieselboy.]

200% and 400% can be made steerable.

Very rarely in one shot like posted above. My 200% were pretty good. But not perfect. My 400% is why I'm glad I bought Minotaur.

They are finicky. But I drive around town lots and have slapped small trailers on the rig.

Fwiw I have a tune that makes zero smoke. Even when lugged locked in OD. Probably would get beat by my stocker in a 120 tune

With a 100% nozzle. You can empty more in the same time. It's like comparing 100% to 200%. Everything the 100% can do. The 200% could essentially empty more fuel. Or empty the same faster. In the same window of time. In my opinion making it safer on the hotter tunes. With more rpm as less PW and soi adder to get the job done.

 

[OldschoolPSD]

This seem like the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" sales approach. I see a lot of technical jargon and some neat equipment, but nothing near the "proof" that was promised in the thread title.

I don't have a dog in this fight, that's just my observation from the outside looking in.

 

[neverkickn]

This seem like the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" sales approach. I see a lot of technical jargon and some neat equipment, but nothing near the "proof" that was promised in the thread title.

I don't have a dog in this fight, that's just my observation from the outside looking in.

Kinda what I see too.

 

[PSD POWER007]

I don't have an opinion one way or another. But what I will say is that Tim makes a TOP NOTCH product and his customer service is second to NONE!!
If I asked for one thing and this is just something I like, I'd like to get a flow chart with your injectors. The top injector builder in the import market that I used to use, they flow tested, marked and sent out flow matched sets with documentation for the owner and tuner. No big deal to most, but I thought it was cool.