Question for all tuned automatic truck guys

[Back woods]

I dealt with similar shifting issues with my NMC2 pcm that uses a VRAA6N3 calibration. All I wanted was decent shifts that were "stockish". Here are some cross quotes from an FTE member that really cleared things up. Also gives some insight as to why some of the transmission tuning is so rough.

It's the problem with aftermarket calibration vendors using NMC1 (50-state variant of PMT1).

It is VERY crappy when towing for this very reason. Everything else is ok except this characteristic which is fixable in the current tuning but you may want to have your current vendor just write you a set of NMC2 tunes.

This is a reply in regards of finding an NMC2 based tune.

No. It's no different to tune than any other calibration. There are a couple reasons that NMC1 is used over NMC2 and they're the same reasons nobody really offers PMT2 tuning either. However, it's entirely possible to get rid of the instant reapply with NMC1....just gotta know what to change.
1. More people than not just daily drive or drive spiritedly with their trucks. The issues you have are the same as everyone else that uses aftermarket tuning from the "custom" tuning crowd but you drive in a way where it is unacceptable; most don't notice. Also , some hate the "lag" on the 4-3 downshift and want it gone from their PMT2/3 and NMC2/3 (it exists on the 02-03 trucks stock too).
2. It's way easier and time-conscious to write one set of tuning that works for most everyone and not duplicate the tuning to other strategies. Why write 45 sets of tunes when you can get away with 10-12?
3. "Tuners" are cheap. Why buy all of the definition files (VRAA6 and VRAA7 in this case which are different enough that MOST of the commonly-changed stuff matches up) when you can just buy 9 and tune all of the major PCM families? I think Bill (Power Hungry Performance who sells the software to nearly everyone "tuning") has around 20 available but they cost a lot per file so just getting the minimum to start selling tuning the most popular strategies makes sense.

 

[cleatus12r]

I know where you got that information!

I had to re-count the definition files....I have 36 (not sure where I came up with just 20 although I really haven't opened any tuning software for many months so I kind of lost track). I think the issues that are described in this thread are more along the lines of actual shifting and a lack of "release" on all downshifts, not just a hard "feel" on the 4-3.

 

[cleatus12r]

Hi, I am having the same issue with my truck. I have a TS6 position chip thats tuned to Swamp's "baby swamps" injectors. I had one guy at a transmission shop tell me that the ECU gets "confused" and that the transmission will try to stick with the stock shift points. At least that was my rudimentary understanding of it. He said that the "on the fly" chips can fry the stock ECU after just a few times when you click the settings back and forth. Apparently the stock ECUs can't handle the constant shift of data. Again, this is my limited understanding of it. I have the same issue and thought I'd throw my two cents in.

Not true.

If that were a real issue, MANY people would be super upset about having to buy more PCMs after a year or three. The only time a chip can damage the PCM is when it is removed from the J3 port while the PCM is powered-up. The PCM itself doesn't get "confused" but if certain portions of the tuning aren't changed to reflect added power or acceleration quickness, or if shift point changes aren't copacetic (say trying to go from 2nd to 3rd at a higher road speed but after the shift the tuning says that a downshift from 3rd to 2nd needs to happen), then it can seem like the PCM is lost in the space/time continuum.

 

[gnxtc2]

Hey gnxtc2, can you elaborate a little on why you like the tyrant trans tuning?

I wanted Cale to put the SD start up map in the tunes. At low ambient temps, the motor would start at a higher idle like a carburetor. Also, there is too much ICP in the higher HP tunes and the motor starts bucking.

I have a chip burner for the TS6 chips. The Tyrant tunes were emailed to me and I burnt them onto the TS chip.

I went to a Hydra that I bought from JeliBuilt. I was able to put the Tyrant tunes onto the Hydra.

What really needs to happen is to have the truck live tuned. Every truck is different...no if's and's or but's, no two trucks are the same. And some think that tuners should've came across of all builds by now and have a grasp on tuning needs----> total BS.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[boss300]

Can someone clear up for me definition files and pcm codes. Are there multiple definitions for a given pcm code? I have a pmt2 computer so are there multiple definitions for a pmt2? Let’s say on a stock truck that has pmt2 does a tuner use a PMT1 or other definition file as their base so the truck dosent shift the same as a pmt2?

 

[cleatus12r]

Let me see how easy I can make this.

The definition file is used by the tuning software to decode the hexidecimal values in each calibration file. Ford changed the addressing of the data in the calibrations (the data determines every aspect of what makes everything happen and when) so it takes a particular "definition file" to make the addresses "line up" when either the PCM reads it or the tuning software is used to "see" it.

In this example, PMT1 uses VRAA6 (as its strategy or "hex" name is VRAA6S3) and PMT2 uses VRAA7 because the strategy name is VRAA7S5. Both of these calibrations can be opened and viewed with either definition but a lot of the information that will be witnessed in the software (GUI Graphical User Interface) will be gibberish as the addressing for the data is offset differently and the information is useless and cannot be accurately fiddled-with.

 

[cleatus12r]

Another thing to consider is that there is nothing differently "tuneable" between the two calibrations I mentioned. For all intents and purposes, they are equally as tunable from one to the next but since most people (and those who sell tuning) only buy one definition for each hardware code (DPC-422 in this case) they buy the one that is the most popular which is VRAA6. This way people can tune any DPC-422 PCM to PMT1 and most everybody is happy.

 

[gnxtc2]

An OBS PCM has less parameters to tune compared to a SD PCM thus making a OBS harder to tune. Most use the TDE1 PCM code for the OBS. Some say the TEE5 code feels most powerful while the TDE1 has best drivability.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[cleatus12r]

Not sure why that's in the discussion. Yes, fewer things to futz with arbitrarily for sure though.

TEE5 is garbage. Everything about it is garbage. Forget it exists.

 

[boss300]

Do I understand this correctly?

So basically any dpc-422 pcm is going to be tuned to mimick pmt1. Since mine is pmt2 then if the tuner dosent have the definition for it then there may be a few things that don’t line up since the definition isn’t the same.

What do most of the tuners use for an early 99 xle4 pcm? Back in the day when I had a tuned xle4 computer I don’t remember having the issues I described earlier in the thread. Will going back and having my truck tuned with the xle4 computer make it shift different or have the tuners found a definition file for the early computers that mimicks pmt1 as well?

I have always had the best luck with DP tunes and Jody has told me that he has had customers go back to the xle4 computers in the past but he never told me why.

 

[cleatus12r]

I use an XLE4 PCM in my 2000 2wd in my signature (250/200%) and 4R100. I love it.

As for your questions, to PROPERLY tune a PMT2 calibration, a VRAA7 definition MUST be used. However, there is no reason that a PMT1 base file cannot be used and written to mimick a PMT2/3.

It's not about what "most tuners use" for an XLE4, but that they had to buy a VHAE9 definition to tune them. The "definition file" DOES NOT determine how a calibration works/runs/shifts. All of that is in the calibration itself.

 

[Peroni]

My truck does the same. If you're coasting, foot off the pedal and the truck slows down enough to drop gears, it'll lug. The converter doesn't unlock and when it shifts to next gear with the converter locked, it slams hard. I have Jelibuilt, Tyrant, DP, No Limit..they all do the same. Now trying to explain it this to the tuners, it fall upon deaf ears.

I worked with Brian of JeliBuilt to straighten this out and he couldn't fix it. His transmission strategy is not the greatest. He might have a great engine side but his drivability is not up to par. He got tired of me calling and said, I'm doing any more revisions. I even sent him Tyrant's tunes.

Right now, I'm running Tyrant's tunes. The transmission strategy is spot on.

Now, if I can get Tyrant transmission tunes with JeliBuilt engine tune, now we're talking. I can live with the converter switching gears locked.

Billy T.
[email protected]

I got a set of tunes from Brian during his Black Friday sale and at least with mine the trans shifting is nearly identical to Cale's tuning and it drives very well. BTS trans though. Those are the only two tuners with whom I've gotten good trans strategy from. I would have stayed with Cale only he is impossible to get hold of and after 18+ months I got tired of chasing him down.

 

[gnxtc2]

I got a set of tunes from Brian during his Black Friday sale and at least with mine the trans shifting is nearly identical to Cale's tuning and it drives very well. BTS trans though. Those are the only two tuners with whom I've gotten good trans strategy from. I would have stayed with Cale only he is impossible to get hold of and after 18+ months I got tired of chasing him down.

Hmmmm....very interesting. What I'm gonna post, I hope I don't cause any friction.

When I got Cale's tunes, they were emailed to me and I burnt them onto a TS6 chip. I have a chip burner. The only problem with Cale's tunes I have, the higher HP tunes. There is too much ICP and truck starts bucking if I just mash the pedal. If I roll into, then there is no bucking. Brian's tunes don't have this issue.

Later on, I bought a Hydra from Brian along with his tunes. I did not like his trans shifting strategy. We went and forth a few times and never got it right. We got onto the subject of locking tunes so no other person could read them. I asked Brian if could read someone else tunes. He said as long as they are not locked. So I sent him Cale's tunes. He didn't comment on them, just stated that they are safe. I asked him if he could put the trans strategy on his engine tunes and said it's not that easy.

As a side note, one of my conversations with Brian, I asked him if I can load Cale's tunes onto the Hydra. He said you should be able to. And they work fine on the Hydra.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[cleatus12r]

It's not really that hard to copy portions of one calibration and add them to a different one with better traits elsewhere. I do it with TS calibrations all the time for people. The calibrations run fantastic but as you're probably well aware, there were zero ****s given for driveline safety and they shift like absolute garbage so I will put less aggressive shifting characteristics into TS Performance calibrations and fix them so they run good and shift good.

The two things to watch out for are, one, the shift points themselves. Accelerator pedal "feel" and shift timing go hand-in-hand and if the loud pedal is really sensitive in the "good running" tune, all of the shift points are going to occur super early on the "good shifting" calibrations and they may be really soft for the amount of power getting put through the transmission. Number two, your tuner of choice being scrupulous and watching his reputation. The unfortunate thing with TS Performance chips (and the reason they're not really popular anymore) is that people who send out tuning for them or work with them may have the ability to read them (not just erase and reflash) and when they are sent to a vendor to be reburned, they are first read and the calibrations are saved JUST IN CASE there are issues with the tuning that replaced them and the customer wants them back. This in itself isn't bad if the files are ONLY saved and NOT reused or pirated for other nefarious uses. However, others' work is able to be seen (not just felt) and people don't like that.

I suspect that your particular tuning guy is just being cordial and respecting others' work. Good on him.

 

[Lt.Dan]

I've been reading this thread and just wanted to step in and give my .02 (even though I dont know a WHOLE lot about this subject).. I've had Swamps tunes for a while, and I finally got reason that a "stutter" at freeway speeds was caused by the tuning. So I decided to buy Brian's tunes just after his Black Friday sale ended (of course lol). Now Dave at Swamps told me his software did not allow him to modify the shift strategy, so I was stuck with the stock strategy (which the stock strategy on DPC-202 and MIF6 is absolute garbage from what I hear). But after I bought my DieselSite trans, Bob Riley offered to give me tunes to help with the shifting, and Dave sent me the unencrypted tunes for Bob to tweak. He got it pretty good, but it was still never great, as Bob isn't a dedicated tuner.

Now I have Brian's tuning, I was thoroughly impressed, with both the engine and trans side. The engine side made more power, smoother power curve, and better pedal feel. The trans side he almost nailed the first try, other than shift points (1->2 being too late for my liking, as well as 3->4), the shift was firm, and quick, while not harsh, or lazy, and no flares so far. So maybe hes learned a thing or two lately.

Another thing I'd like to add, is the whole time I'm reading, I'm thinking about how I used to have to tune Nissan Titans (I know, sacrilege to some of you, but they are great trucks). We used software called Uprev, and you would plug the OBD2 port into a laptop and do some Data Logging while on the road. Some WOT runs and driving around town, then you would send it to the tuner and he would make you a custom map. You would do this a few times back and forth until the tuner deemed it acceptable. This got the tune within 95% of a live tune because the tuner got to see REAL world results from what the truck was doing, It just took some time. Why do we not have this option?

 

[cjfarm111]

There is that option if you have the software to do it. I have an n-dash that allows me to do that for DP tuner tunes only. It does help I agree 100%. I don’t know if any of the other tuners offer this?

 

[Lt.Dan]

I guess with the OBS though, there isn't enough PIDs to give enough info to make it worth while?

 

[Back woods]

I am running into the same problem with transmission shifting with multiple company's tuning. Once the torque converter locks up in my truck it wont unlock again until you get below a set mph. Some tuners have it at 30, some a little less like around 27. This annoys me due to the fact that when slowing down to just above 30 mph, the truck stays in 3rd with the converter locked so that when I try to accelerate, the engine lugs and smokes like crazy. This problem is even worse when pulling a large trailer. If I push the pedal hard enough to make the truck downshift, it keeps the converter locked for the downshift and then the next upshift resulting in very harsh shifting. I wish the converter would unlock when decelerating under 40 mph. When I tell the tuners this they are baffled and either say I have used this tuning for years with no complaints or a simple hmmm...

What do your trucks do in this situation and are you happy with it?

I have 250/200 injectors, a php hydra and all the supporting mods but this issue should apply to stock injector automatic trucks as well I would think.

Posted earlier in this thread. Since then my NMC2 pcm went out and replaced it with an NKV4. From there I order a tune and recieved a PMT1 file.

It shifts the exact same as what you posted now. Towing a trailer it will hold 3rd down to 30mph or so and lug hard. It will downshift with about 80% throttle and if I let off any it shifts right back into lockup. These trucks are funny, one pcm shifts rough as hell. The other holds gear way too long.

 

[boss300]

It seems a lot of trucks shift like mine does and use a “pmt” strategy. Can anybody post what an nvk or nmc strategy feels like? I seem to recall my old xle dropping out the converter anytime it was below 38 mph.