STUDDED AND STILL PUKING

Dieselcraft · Jul 11, 2011

Cobra 19 & 54 said:
agreed, FORD's spec and real world are two very different. I have been told so many different things about the tolerance for 6.0 heads, and the realistic part is to just have them machined so you are 100% positive.

Agreed

SaNnDnSurF · Jul 11, 2011

Yes when I did the studs n delete but the cap was the old style

4cstr · Jul 11, 2011

You can chalk me up as having to do gaskets twice. The first time I had the EGR deleted, studs, Black Onyx gaskets, new oil cooler and exhaust installed. The heads were planed and magnafluxed for any problems. After 8600 miles I started burping coolant again. I changed the coolant cap and had my Ford dealer pressure check the system. The pressure check was fine. On my AE EOT's and coolant temps were within 5 degrees of each other. Dan came and got the Ex and discovered that the gasket around #5 cylinder looked flaky. It peeled off in layers right there. He had the heads checked again for flatness and cracks...and they came back perfect. The nuts were still torqued to the correct reading. It is possible to get defective gaskets.

ITUKMOR · Jul 12, 2011

Acceptable spec for FORD OEM cylinder head flatness is .003. This measurement goes for both directions. Sooooooooo, a cylinder head can have a dip in the center of the head across the short side of .003 and be considered "flat". .003 difference across an 8 in. spread is friggin ridiculous!! If we get a head back from the machine shop that has more than .0005 across the LENGTH of the head, it is going back. It is not your Ford tech's fault by any means as he can only go off the information that is provided to him by the manufacturer.

But Dennis really hit the nail on the head. The problem here is the misconception that the 6.0L can be bulletproofed. The extra clamping force and strength of tool steel studs versus bolts definitely increases the chances that gasket integrity can be maintained. This does not negate the fact that there are just not enough of either one (bolts or studs) to properly seal each cylinder. Fire ring kits have proven to tremendously improve the ability of a motor to contain it's cylinder pressures but this option is not available to most either because of down time or cost. The saddest part is that what Dennis said happens all the time. A customer pays to have the heads machined flat, the block is meticulously checked, new gaskets are installed, a good quality stud is used, and the gaskets sometimes still fail.

wetnsloppy4x · Jul 13, 2011

ITUKMOR said:
Acceptable spec for FORD OEM cylinder head flatness is .003. This measurement goes for both directions. Sooooooooo, a cylinder head can have a dip in the center of the head across the short side of .003 and be considered "flat". .003 difference across an 8 in. spread is friggin ridiculous!! If we get a head back from the machine shop that has more than .0005 across the LENGTH of the head, it is going back. It is not your Ford tech's fault by any means as he can only go off the information that is provided to him by the manufacturer..

Great info. Thanks for putting that up here.

ITUKMOR said:
Fire ring kits have proven to tremendously improve the ability of a motor to contain it's cylinder pressures but this option is not available to most either because of down time or cost.

Unfortunately, it would seem that fire ringing has gotten a bad reputation in the 6.0 world, all due to shoddy machine work.:doh:

Tay5985 · Jul 17, 2011

So my buddy has the Auto Enginuity Scan tool... we went and logged my truck to check the eot and ect temps... they were within 3-5 degrees no matter how i drove it... this week it has progressively gotten worse with the puking...if i get on it and do one or two pulls it pukes...i was on the freeway driving less than 5 miles didnt get after it once and by the time i made it there it had puked again...hate to say it but im thinkin it couldnt be anything other than head gaskets again... just hope the tech actually replaced the gaskets the first time...this time i will make sure of it

Cobra 19 & 54 · Jul 18, 2011

Strictly Diesel said:
We've done a mess of 6.0L trucks and the sad reality is that there is no such thing as "bullet proof" when it comes to head gaskets. The closest you can come is pulling the entire engine, having the heads AND the block surfaced, heads pressure tested and magnafluxed and repairing as necessary, using studs, quality gaskets and o-ringing the heads. It would be best to do the coolers while it's down too.

Most people don't do the block or o-ringing, and I would say that 99% of the trucks we do don't come back...provided they had us surface the heads (no warranty without the headwork). It's that 1% that is the most aggravating though...trucks where we did do the head surfacing, did use new studs, did use quality gaskets, did the coolers and they still have a failure. We've had a few where we ended up having to pull the block and have it decked (rare, but occasionally necessary).

The simple fact is that installing head studs, machining head surfaces and upgrading coolers is not "re-engineering" a poor design. There are still only 4 studs per cylinder, the load is still not as evenly distrubuted as it should be, it's still a 6.0L...just with a few upgraded parts and higher tolerance machine work. It's better than stock, but expecting it to be as good as an engine with more evenly distributed clamping force (18 bolts per head like a 7.3L or Duramax) is asking for too much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be "Mr. Negative"...it's just that we talk to so many 6.0L owners day in and day out and the expectation is that throwing some aftermarket parts at the engine will make everything "the way it should be". In reality, it makes them better, but still less than ideal. For the average 6.0L owners daily driver, with moderate modifictions and typical towing usage, most can expect a significantly more reliable truck with these modifications. For those on the more extreme end of the performance scale, the chance of a failure will always still be there...just hopefully prolonged.

HATER!!! LOL. Looks like Chaz and I are the only ones that like em in AZ.

newman · Jul 19, 2011

Cobra 19 & 54 said:
HATER!!! LOL. Looks like Chaz and I are the only ones that like em in AZ.

Me too! I miss mine everyday and it puked with ARPs:doh:

Tay5985 · Jul 22, 2011

so just a quick update...i took my truck to my mechanic at ford that does all my stuff on the side(STUDS DELETES ETC) we ran it hard and it didnt puke at all...i changed from erics extreme street to vivians Looney Wild...Went on the freeway did two pulls and when we got back to the shop it puked all over... the whole time we had a gauge on the coolant system trying to see if it was getting too much pressure and it stayed between 16 and 18 the whole time when i was floored and less when we were just cruising... we are thinkin either a cracked head or a bad degas bottle... so we put a brand new degas bottle on it today now im gonna go run it again and see what happens ill keep everyone posted

Cobra 19 & 54 · Jul 22, 2011

My OLD Looney does the same thing. I switched to Innovative Programs. Vivian is still a great lady, just didn't like the tunes.

strokin6L · Jul 22, 2011

makes me think that vivian puts waaay too much timing in the tunes. Too much timing will do this. I run eric's tunes and mine doesn't puke a drop with x-race. Eric doesn't use much timing compared to other tuners i guess.

chappy · Jul 23, 2011

Well if it changes with tuner then I would say its the tune not the truck.

ParkerFly · Jul 23, 2011

Strictly Diesel said:
The simple fact is that installing head studs, machining head surfaces and upgrading coolers is not "re-engineering" a poor design. There are still only 4 studs per cylinder, the load is still not as evenly distrubuted as it should be, it's still a 6.0L...just with a few upgraded parts and higher tolerance machine work. It's better than stock, but expecting it to be as good as an engine with more evenly distributed clamping force (18 bolts per head like a 7.3L or Duramax) is asking for too much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be "Mr. Negative"...it's just that we talk to so many 6.0L owners day in and day out and the expectation is that throwing some aftermarket parts at the engine will make everything "the way it should be". In reality, it makes them better, but still less than ideal. For the average 6.0L owners daily driver, with moderate modifictions and typical towing usage, most can expect a significantly more reliable truck with these modifications. For those on the more extreme end of the performance scale, the chance of a failure will always still be there...just hopefully prolonged.

ITUKMOR said:
But Dennis really hit the nail on the head. The problem here is the misconception that the 6.0L can be bulletproofed. The extra clamping force and strength of tool steel studs versus bolts definitely increases the chances that gasket integrity can be maintained. This does not negate the fact that there are just not enough of either one (bolts or studs) to properly seal each cylinder. Fire ring kits have proven to tremendously improve the ability of a motor to contain it's cylinder pressures but this option is not available to most either because of down time or cost. The saddest part is that what Dennis said happens all the time. A customer pays to have the heads machined flat, the block is meticulously checked, new gaskets are installed, a good quality stud is used, and the gaskets sometimes still fail.

I wish I'd seen this thread sooner, but you guys really nailed it - especially the bold part.
I had one of those "nightmare" 6.0s that had properly done gaskets/heads/studs etc. and it still puked and gave problems. My truck was stock, but was worked hard (but maintained well). It just wouldn't hold up. At the end of the day its a lesson learned for me.

SaNnDnSurF · Jul 24, 2011

Tay5985 said:
so just a quick update...i took my truck to my mechanic at ford that does all my stuff on the side(STUDS DELETES ETC) we ran it hard and it didnt puke at all...i changed from erics extreme street to vivians Looney Wild...Went on the freeway did two pulls and when we got back to the shop it puked all over... the whole time we had a gauge on the coolant system trying to see if it was getting too much pressure and it stayed between 16 and 18 the whole time when i was floored and less when we were just cruising... we are thinkin either a cracked head or a bad degas bottle... so we put a brand new degas bottle on it today now im gonna go run it again and see what happens ill keep everyone posted

Update???

Tay5985 · Jul 24, 2011

so last night i went out and ran it for a while and it puked all over once again...truck goes in friday to have the cab pulled again to diagnose whats goin on

SaNnDnSurF · Aug 21, 2011

Tay5985 said:
so last night i went out and ran it for a while and it puked all over once again...truck goes in friday to have the cab pulled again to diagnose whats goin on

Any news? In the same boat here.

Zmann · Aug 21, 2011

if it was getting too much pressure and it stayed between 16 and 18 the whole time

I am confused ? maybe because I didn't start on page 1 ?

the cap burpes at 16 so 16-18 it's puking and seems to follow vivian's tune?? or what did i miss??