Water/meth kit questions

[Lowdown89]

Ok, I guess I will stick to just running water to keep my EGTs down Its not worth it to me to blow something up just for a few extra horses by running meth with it.... I appreciate the honest input from you guys!

 

[Tree Trimmer]

it would be different if it was on a track truck, instead of a dd/track truck. and dont get me wrong, you can put some meth in it to give you that boost your after.

i see your built by php. it would be worth a phone call to them to find out what they think the max you can go with the meth is, as they know your motor and tuning better than we do.

keep in mind that anything over WW fluid and you will need to talk to your tuner to see if he needs to make tuning changes to compensate for the meth.

there are guys that have two water tanks in their truck. one for the track only, that has a specific ratio of meth in it, and a position on their chip specifically for that tank. and then just a regular water tank that they use for every day use, for use with the rest of the positions. put the two tanks side by side, a little shut off valve on both tanks, shut one off to use the other one, and vise versa. thats a optional set up also.

 

[Lowdown89]

Bill is actually the one that told me about the truck he tuned with my same setup that i have and made 440 on a simple meth kit that's what got my wheels turning, I would plan on running nothing more than washer fluid in it... We didn't really talk in depth he just mentioned it and told me I oughta get a setup for my truck while I was down getting my buddies truck tuned. And while I'm sure he has the tuning aspects down I was just trying to better my knowledge on the gains I would get from the diffrent kits and if I would see gains from more complex kits over the simple kits and I can say from the posts from you guys I greatly understand it better and I most certainly thank y'all for it! When I get a kit if I decide to run anything but water thru it I will certainly have him put it on the dyno and tune it accordingly

 

[Tree Trimmer]

you dont need to have it put on the dyno to tune for it. meth is a fuel. he just has to adjust his fueling tables accordingly. nothing major, you just need to have a tune for anything more than washer fluid, allowing bill says you need one.

 

[TARM]

How do you accurately adjust tuning ( SOI,PW) for the addition of a un-metered un-regualted fuel? Its not like this is being precisely metered to each cylinder nor i to the engine as a whole. The amounts being prayed in varies greatly from system to system, motor to motor, etc.... You can delay SOI etc but its just a general guesstimate to hopefully reduce the stress but I can not see how it is in anyway precise? SO here we go thru all this trouble to live tune, jump on the dynos to get things right, further work on the road etc. all to get the tuning dialed in as precisely as we can possibly get it. The fuel when how much the pressure, for the air the temps the loads etc. Then we go and add some secondary fuel just sprayed in there into a tube without any real precision whatsoever to gain 15-30hp. What was the point to all that previous work then if now you just have to take some guesses to change things to hopefully prevent cracking pistons and valve faces? Also does not delaying SOI tend to reduce fuel only power? So then how much over all is really gained? @ steps forward one back deal?

I think I would stick with water with some water soluble machine oil for lubrication and maybe additional chem as anti freeze in the winter only if needed.

 

[Tom S]

How do you accurately adjust tuning ( SOI,PW) for the addition of a un-metered un-regualted fuel? Its not like this is being precisely metered to each cylinder nor i to the engine as a whole. The amounts being prayed in varies greatly from system to system, motor to motor, etc.... You can delay SOI etc but its just a general guesstimate to hopefully reduce the stress but I can not see how it is in anyway precise? SO here we go thru all this trouble to live tune, jump on the dynos to get things right, further work on the road etc. all to get the tuning dialed in as precisely as we can possibly get it. The fuel when how much the pressure, for the air the temps the loads etc. Then we go and add some secondary fuel just sprayed in there into a tube without any real precision whatsoever to gain 15-30hp. What was the point to all that previous work then if now you just have to take some guesses to change things to hopefully prevent cracking pistons and valve faces? Also does not delaying SOI tend to reduce fuel only power? So then how much over all is really gained? @ steps forward one back deal?

I think I would stick with water with some water soluble machine oil for lubrication and maybe additional chem as anti freeze in the winter only if needed.

Curious to hear more about the underlined part and the rest makes sense to me.

 

[Lowdown89]

Curious to hear more about the underlined part and the rest makes sense to me.

Me to because after reading the multiple post by the people who I look at as wayyyyyy more knowledgable about this than me says just water should be the way to go I have kinda give up on using it to make more power by using anything besides water... Would this machine oil be used for help lubing the solenoid? Or does it have have another benefit as well?

 

[Tree Trimmer]

dunno tarm, i briefly talked to matt when i was ordering my chip, and i told him i had water inj, and i asked if i needed tuning adjustments for it. told him i run water in summer and ww fluid in winter.

he said, "as long as you stay with ww fluid as the most meth you get, your fine with the tuning you have." i read/heard that if you run more than ww fluid, i will have to tweak your tune/tunes to accomodate more meth.

it stands to reason that if a person is running 30% meth to water, or 50% meth to water, or what ever their ratio is, and meth being a fuel and all, you would need to compensate for it. regardless what your compensating with, you would need to change/allow for something.

for instance. take your ex you just did. allowing you get your fuel issues resolved. now im goin to put a water inj kit on it. and in the tank im goin to mix the ratio at, lets grab a number, 50/50 meth/water. would you feel comfortable simply running that the way your tuning is? or would you attempt to compensate for it? you seen that video i posted on how much flow i had, now make half that meth. still wanna not at least try to compensate?

i dont know chit about tuning, i know i turn a knob and my truck runs different becase pw, icp, and lots of other things change, so take the next little bit with a grain of salt.

granted, like you said, its not metered 100% accurately, not tied to the pcm to be auto calculated into the tuning, but if you had it set up to inject based on boost, and you knew close approximates of what you injected, i.e. at 10 psi of boost im injecting X amount of water which includes X amount of meth, and so on with other boost numbers, you could get reasonably close. there fore you could make the boost "table(s)", modify other tables to allow for the meth. again, thats straight out of my ass, as i know nothing about tuning, thats just a tree trimmers brain churning out a scenario as one way the pcm could see the meth with a existing table.

and tom. when the good ol' usa went to low/ultra low sulphur diesel, it lost some lubrication qualities. some ppl put two stroke oil in their tank, other ppl, like my self, put some water soluble machine oil in their water tanks. i myself dont like the idea of oil goin through my injectors. regardless of if its ok, or gonna hurt them, everyone has a opinion. my truck doesnt see oil in the fuel tank. its called a fuel tank, to be filled up with diesel. i feel that the fuel filter would sort some/most of the oil out anyways, thus making it plug/restrict faster. again, its a fuel filter, not a oil filter. isnt the fuel filter a finer mic anyways than a oil filter? granted, you could probably get our injectors to inject straight crisco if you so desired, might not get them to refill, but i would wager it would inject it at least that first time.

 

[TARM]

Actually it was something Charles turned me onto. I was spending the ridiculous amounts of time I tend to researching and learning about something before going forward with it. I was pretty much where everyone started asking about water with meth and liking the idea of the added power. Then learned more and more about the short comings of the meth from people like Dave@Swamps, Charles, others etc...

Charles got a hold of me and said the one thing he would recommend and does add is some water soluble oil to the H2O. Reason being it would add lubrication for the piston rings and I personally would assume the pump and entire system. That without the oil you have a good possibility of rust and the pitting of the piston rings which then can lead to excessive wear or something to that effect. I took this as sometimes you are left with extra moisture in the cylinders at shut off and that sitting there over night or days weeks allows for corrosion. By the addition of something like machine oil you add that extra bit of lubrication to minimize this. As I said before it also seems like it would not be bad for the nozzles jets and pump as well.

I honestly did not go overboard to investigate it further as it seemed logical and sound. Further our motors burn oil as fuel already so that tiny bit is not hurting anything IMO. LOL

 

[TARM]

TT,

That is likely becasue Matt is quite conservative with SOI comparative to what some have run. But I will still stick with my assertion that if your tuning is setup ideal and really dialed in how can adding a new alternative fuel that is also untimed in its injection point not effect the system as a whole. Either the system is dialed in or its not. If it is then change something would change that woudl it not? Yes it maybe within a window of tolerance but it still has to change something and that something is not exactly consistent given the way its metered.

Also over on PSN maybe 5-6 month ago I posted up a long list of the meth concentrations of every windshield washer fluid I could find. It was a huge spread. If I can find that or someone else would that I am sure could be very helpful for those planning on using WW fluid. The amounts were from 10% up to 50-60% IIRC. I pulled them all from the MSDS sheets on the products listed by the manf.

I guess to me with all I put into my setup I would rather be safe than sorry as 10-15 hp extra just is not worth it to me.


On thing I have been interested in is the effects on proper water injection on NOX and soot output. Water has a very similar effect as EGT but without the negatives. Be interested in seeing exhaust output in a emission test under load with the system on and off. I tend to think emission woudl be significantly reduced and wonder how close they would come to meeting current day requirements with our old dinosaur motors that do not have one single emission control item on them. LOL

 

[Tom S]

So did Charles suggest what he used for this machine oil? FYI Tarm I like your research

 

[Lowdown89]

Diesel power did a test using a snow kit on a cummins showing the huge drops in NoX emissions by running water injection it's was very interesting and seems like a great alternative to things like UREA I just ordered the stage 1 kit dorm David at coolingmist as he was super helpful and also told me I can expand on it as my budget and my want to play with more stages,etc come about

TT,

That is likely becasue Matt is quite conservative with SOI comparative to what some have run. But I will still stick with my assertion that if your tuning is setup ideal and really dialed in how can adding a new alternative fuel that is also untimed in its injection point not effect the system as a whole. Either the system is dialed in or its not. If it is then change something would change that woudl it not? Yes it maybe within a window of tolerance but it still has to change something and that something is not exactly consistent given the way its metered.

Also over on PSN maybe 5-6 month ago I posted up a long list of the meth concentrations of every windshield washer fluid I could find. It was a huge spread. If I can find that or someone else would that I am sure could be very helpful for those planning on using WW fluid. The amounts were from 10% up to 50-60% IIRC. I pulled them all from the MSDS sheets on the products listed by the manf.

I guess to me with all I put into my setup I would rather be safe than sorry as 10-15 hp extra just is not worth it to me.


On thing I have been interested in is the effects on proper water injection on NOX and soot output. Water has a very similar effect as EGT but without the negatives. Be interested in seeing exhaust output in a emission test under load with the system on and off. I tend to think emission woudl be significantly reduced and wonder how close they would come to meeting current day requirements with our old dinosaur motors that do not have one single emission control item on them. LOL

 

[Charles]

So did Charles suggest what he used for this machine oil? FYI Tarm I like your research

Exactly what Bo at Scheid told me to run years back. Napa water soluble cutting and grinding oil.

After seeing an engine taken apart after running straight water, and seeing the rust on the piston walls and head ports and then after having my own engine develop larger amounts of blowby over the course of a year or so, and then after adding the oil watching as that blowby went right back down to normal again I would never suggest running pure water through an engine without a lubricant. You're steam cleaning the engine, but then when it shuts off it sits there with droplets on everything. Even with my turbo-temp monitor running the truck at each shut down it still didn't seem to be enough to keep the condensate under control.

I bought like 3 bottles oh so many years ago and have yet to burn through the second one. The ratio required is tiny. With the water running into the tank I just pour a little into the stream. If it turns the water white, it's enough in my experience. Which doesn't take much at all, and shouldn't have any measurable effect on flammability.

Another important point mentioned by a few already... do NOT operate a system without a shut off solenoid between the tank and engine. Even if you don't have any hydrolocking issues, the water WILL be running into the ports and causing issues inside the engine just sitting there all night long each day. Rust rings in the cylinders where pistons spent the night with a tiny bit of water on them is not uncommon. In fact, it's pretty much par for the course with no shut off solenoid. Even if the tank is well below the nozzles. Still lets water dribble. Don't do it. The extreme end of the spectrum is pure hydrolocking and a bent rod on startup.

Fwiw, I would never suggest purposefully introducing a flammable liquid of substantial quantity into the intake track of a compression ignition engine where it cannot be timed except by it's own auotignition point vs the pressure/temp in the cylinder approaching TDC as is the case when injecting methanol into the intake of a diesel engine.


Btw.... glad I'm not the only one that noticed that the coolingmist guy can be a COMPLETE dick... I tried numerous times over the course of a couple years to buy various things from him and each time ended up ending the call without buying a thing just because he was such a dickhead. Luckily at some point I ended up getting past that and now have some good nozzles from them. Although I'm not sure it wasn't someone else I talked to the last time. And he has no clue when it comes to the effects of a flammable liquid on a diesel engine. As many engines as I have listened to rattling their brains out with too much meth, and as many as have pushed rods through the side and blown gaskets to hell, that man is of the mindset that additional methanol does NOT negatively effect in-cylinder pressures. He quoted a scientific journal article as the basis for his feelings but would not hear me out to describe to him how the article he was citing was being mis-applied here. Nor did he want to hear of cylinder pressure testing results, blown gaskets or rodded blocks. This conversation was spurred in the process of his basically telling me what a moron I was for running boost only control, even after I told him of actual examples of trucks running EGT based control that had injected at improper times (due to high egt but low rpm/boost) and rattled and knocked so bad that one actually broke the input shaft just lugging along when the stupid ass controller started dumping water into the engine...

Anyway.... if you can get around the dick on the phone, they make some good stuff...

 

[strokin6L]

I have been running water injection on my truck for over 5 years and run snow's stage II kit and it's absolutly awesome. Easy install, and a great kit...i wouldn't even consider getting any other kit. I have been running two nozzles. Starts to inject at around 15psi and full at 30psi. When it starts to inject i can feel the HP increase instantly and just watch the egt's drop. The tone in the exhaust is also very noticable when it comes on. The only thing i use is the cheap blue windshield washer fluid...it has methanol in it already. So no need for trying to mix anything together

 

[Lowdown89]

I try to only deal with people thru email or face to face when I order something because I have very low patience for phone conversations when I order something... But like I said I was speaking with David thru email and FB and he was pretty nice to me was it just because I was ordering something from them? Prob lol then again I have prob 1/16 the insight and experience about this stuff most of you all who have posted helping me out and that's the reason why I'm asking so many and prob some dumb questions here I would rather look like a dumbass asking questions than standing on the side of the road knowing I'm a dumbass after blowing something up.... Now that I wrote my book on that, does anyone have pics of their install? Since I'm only running 1 nozzle for now is there a better place than others to mount it? Also I was thinking of mounting the tank and pump in my tool box has anyone had problems with the pump getting to hot in there and if so where should I mount it?

 

[SkySki Jason]

13% methanol doesn't freeze until 20*F and 24% is good to 0*F.

I'll be getting a Cooling Mist system or 2 in the near future and plan to run water-only in summer and the above ratios as necessary in winter. I also have a couple 100gals of methanol and since we haven't made bio-d in a couple years, need to get rid of it somehow!!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/methanol-water-d_987.html

 

[Charles]

If I decide to run my water in the winter I just pour a little of the green antifreeze in the tank each time.

 

[TARM]

I believe that the machine oil would lower the freezing point of the water at a dose dependent rate. I could be wrong but it seems logical..

 

[Tom S]

Good posts Charlie. Just a random thought, do you think that it would be best of the water injection system self drained the lines at shut down or however they were evacuated to keep liquid out of the motor when not running?

I think Dzacc was our local guy that ended up with a motor full of water from his system back when.

 

[Lowdown89]

13% methanol doesn't freeze until 20*F and 24% is good to 0*F.

I'll be getting a Cooling Mist system or 2 in the near future and plan to run water-only in summer and the above ratios as necessary in winter. I also have a couple 100gals of methanol and since we haven't made bio-d in a couple years, need to get rid of it somehow!!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/methanol-water-d_987.html

I see you are from northern GA, PHP is having a dyno day and drag race in Oct. You should try and make it out!