Anybody with regulated fuel return read this!

windrunner408

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On my truck with 190/100s, I was able to maintain 50-52 psi of fuel pressure (at WOT with Chris's SPD) with AD150 feeding the stock pump feeding a Y that feeds the heads and sends the fuel to a regulator.
 

strokin6L

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When i was running the stock pump and using the FASS low pressure pump piggy backing it...it never dropped below 60psi with ID's race tune. Now i have a fuelab in place of the stock pump thanks to Dennis.
 

hawgdoctor

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You got that backwards.
Less fuel usage=more return flow

^^this. You're a little backwards Brian. Think of it like this. The injectors are your demand. As the demand increases (hot tune, heavy right foot), you are going to need more flow/volume to keep up. Hence the regulator would be closed more to try and keep that set psi up to release the poppet. Less right foot, less demand, and the easier it is to get the poppet open.

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hawgdoctor

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When i was running the stock pump and using the FASS low pressure pump piggy backing it...it never dropped below 60psi with ID's race tune. Now i have a fuelab in place of the stock pump thanks to Dennis.

Love the fuel lab pumps. Normally what I use in high flow systems with no worries. Only pump that I've found to be able to run at 40% duty, and keel up with pretty much anything in front of it.

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Strictly Diesel

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So now we move to the banjos and pressure spring. The tension on the poppet is key. ONLY when pressure/volume pushes the poppet open is there any return to the tank.
You're operating under the assumption that the poppet seals perfectly against the bowl and doesn't leak.

With normal driving the poppet will be shut, no fuel returning to the tank.
As was already covered, under normal light throttle driving the poppet will be open and returning fuel in excess of that needed to maintain your pressure setpoint to the tank. Good chance most of the fuel will be returning to the tank in this situation because the amount required to run really light throttle is pretty minimal.

With the larger 6.4 banjos this will provide PLENTY of fuel to the injectors.

Even with filters installed the OEM setup is doing it's job given the minor mods that should be done.

Once again no one has shown a "lack of PSI" to the rear injectors.

I run a sump, AD100, blue spring, 6.4 banjos and larger front lines. Truck runs great and NO issues. I don't even use a FP gauge. All this on a truck running 220k on the original injectors,

Without a gauge, how do you know if you have any pressure drop? The blue spring is a bandaid at best, I've seen trucks with pressure drop problems after doing the blue spring. Anyone that has ever seen a pressure drop on a gauge has seen a "lack of PSI" to all of the injectors, not just rear ones. As someone said, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat...if your setup is working for you...that's great. It's certainly light years ahead of stock (helper pump, air removal, increased pressure on stock poppet and higher flowing banjos)...but it doesn't flow what a full RR kit will.

I'm not here to convince you to change, if you're happy with what you've got than stick with it. I just wanted to clarify for people reading that there is a difference for sure, and there are valid reasons for doing the full RR setup.
 

Black_Lightning91

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Well this thread got my intrest and Im currently working on a hypothesis that could explain what is going on. Saving this spot to edit tomorrow when I have a little more hard number information to back this up and a method to test this. To be edited tomorrow, goodnight.
 

HeavyAssault

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As before without any real numbers showing what is really happening at the rear of the heads we are all just making assumptions.

At idle the poppet should return the most fuel, as you begin driving creating demand then the return flow will decrease. One would expect to see a PSI drop when using a FP gauge at the fuel bowl on WOT runs. Since the OEM pump already provides enough flow and pressure what are you really seeing with the PSI drop?? You addressed the OEM pump on a good day can support demands up to 190 injectors. So why would OEM injectors "starve"?? No one has the rear head PSI numbers to show what happens. We take the info from one spot and think it is gospel.

Without using a larger volume pump you cannot increase pressure inside a larger line. If I hook up a garden hose to my house faucet I get decent pressure. Hook up a fire hose to my house I get the same volume but MUCH less pressure. Increasing volume out of the house connection will only help increase the fire hose pressure.

Fluid volume and fluid pressure are two VERY different things. Applications need to match one another to provide the most efficient solution.
 

faster6.0

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Well said heavy assault. The back of the heads furthest from the feed in stock form I would bet will drop psi before you see a drop at the bowl
Test port too.
 

HeavyAssault

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So if the theory of starving is correct we would see a severely low PSI at the rear ports. I couldn't argue the numbers nor the fuel starved injectors. Another thought is the firing order of the cylinders and the rate the rail gets "refilled".

Does the firing sequence allow the rail to fill, thus showing a PSI drop at the fuel port?? This would be the system demand forcing the poppet closed to allow the fuel to go to the rail.
 

Strictly Diesel

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As before without any real numbers showing what is really happening at the rear of the heads we are all just making assumptions.
I may be making assumptions, but they are safe ones. It's pretty simple...if you are measuring pressure at the test port in the bowl, you are measuring SUPPLY PRESSURE BEFORE THE FILTER. This will be the point of highest pressure in the system. You will have pressure drop across the filter and between the tubing, banjos and injectors, you will have more pressure drop by the time the fuel reaches the end of the rail. If you have pressure drop on your fuel pressure gauge at the test port, you have even more pressure drop at the end of the rail. There is no escaping this, there can't be more pressure in the rail than you have in the bowl.

One would expect to see a PSI drop when using a FP gauge at the fuel bowl on WOT runs. Since the OEM pump already provides enough flow and pressure what are you really seeing with the PSI drop??
You are seeing a stock pressure regulator setup that can't properly manage pressure. As I said in my previous post, you are working under the assumption that the poppet seals perfectly and doesn't leak. My early fuel system left the poppet in place and the cover over the side of the bowl just pressed it tightly into the bore so it couldn't move...and we still had trucks that had problems with pressure at WOT...why? When we removed the poppet and changed the side cover to seal off the poppet port and the pressure stayed up, what changed? The answer is simple, fuel was leaking from around the poppet and reducing pressure...it was an uncontrollable drain on the system. This is why I call the "blue spring" kit a "bandaid"...because we've actually forced the poppet to be unmovable and pressed tightly against the filter bowl body and still had problems with pressure.

You addressed the OEM pump on a good day can support demands up to 190 injectors. So why would OEM injectors "starve"?? No one has the rear head PSI numbers to show what happens. We take the info from one spot and think it is gospel.
See my first comments above...if there is a pressure drop at the bowl, there is a larger pressure drop at the injectors. If the bowl is at 65psi at idle and drops to 62psi under WOT, not a problem...you've probably got good pressure at the injectors (unless there is some significant restriction like stock banjos with checkvalves in system). If it drops to 40psi, that's a different story. Where is the pressure going and why isn't it staying up...especially if you've got stock injectors. 10 to 1 it's leaking around the poppet and going back to the tank.

Without using a larger volume pump you cannot increase pressure inside a larger line. If I hook up a garden hose to my house faucet I get decent pressure. Hook up a fire hose to my house I get the same volume but MUCH less pressure. Increasing volume out of the house connection will only help increase the fire hose pressure.
Almost correct...you only need a larger volume pump to have more pressure in a larger line IF the current pump isn't already large enough. Keep in mind that we are not dealing with pressure from a fixed orifice, we have a regulator that adjusts to changes in pressure. If you make the line smaller and the pressure goes up, the regulator opens to reduce it. If you increase the line size and the pressure goes down, the regulator closes to try to bring the pressure back up. Fortunately we're not talking about the difference between a garden and fire hose here, the difference is significant but not so comically extreme. It's plainly obvious that the stock pump is more than adequate when I can put larger lines on the system and HOLD a higher than stock pressure with no pressure drop AFTER ALL OF THE DEMAND has been accounted for (even with larger than stock injectors)....just by blocking the stock return port on the bowl and using a quality fuel pressure regulator that is located AFTER all of the pressure drop and demand in the system.
 

HeavyAssault

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So if the stock poppet is the root of the low PSI evil why invest in a $600 kit when I can buy a $60 rebuild kit?? Seems to reason I rebuild the stock kit and monitor with a FP gauge. Anything that drops below suggested pressure shows the poppet is up to no good.

Bringing this back full circle now. HOW does turning down a RR to 45PSI help the truck?? Since we follow the calling that 45PSI at the OEM point is bad, should it not apply to a RR setup??

Since it's now being suggested to turn the PSI down one needs to ask what role a RR really plays??

I hope this isn't getting you PO'd but I'm learning a ton.
 

hawgdoctor

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Well, we'll find out next week exactly how the stock setup works week when brian comes up to bring me his wheels for powder coating.......
ege6ymu4.jpg


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Charles

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Talk about a thread in DIRE need of a dyno....


So far this thread amounts to blah..... blah, and a touch of blah when it comes to the "data" being used to support it.

The only attempt at subjective data was track times, which have more variables to account for than about anything else.


Somebody hop on a dyno and make about 4 pulls at 4 different pressures. 1 hour of time, about 50 bucks and legit data.


For me on my old 7.3 back in the day, nothing. Fuel pressure variances from the 40's to 100+ did nada, zilch, squat for power.

A few quick dyno pulls and the witch hunting is all over. It either does or does not.

26 times as much effort as was needed has already been spent, but the answer is still unknown.


Somebody man up.

0.02
 

HeavyAssault

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Talk about a thread in DIRE need of a dyno....


So far this thread amounts to blah..... blah, and a touch of blah when it comes to the "data" being used to support it.

The only attempt at subjective data was track times, which have more variables to account for than about anything else.


Somebody hop on a dyno and make about 4 pulls at 4 different pressures. 1 hour of time, about 50 bucks and legit data.


For me on my old 7.3 back in the day, nothing. Fuel pressure variances from the 40's to 100+ did nada, zilch, squat for power.

A few quick dyno pulls and the witch hunting is all over. It either does or does not.

0.02

WOW that's a stretch. Now we need dyno runs and track times for a fuel PSI issue??

Jesus this BS about track time and dynos IS REALLY out of control.:fustrate::fustrate: Maybe I need a few dyno runs to show how my new oil has improved my MPGs.
 

strokin6L

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Charles...Renae at Quick Tricks already dyno'd his truck by lowering the pressure before each pull. He said that he made more power each time he lowered the PSI. Not sure if he's a member on here or not, but if he is....maybe he could chime in.
 

HeavyAssault

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Charles...Renae at Quick Tricks already dyno'd his truck by lowering the pressure before each pull. He said that he made more power each time he lowered the PSI. Not sure if he's a member on here or not, but if he is....maybe he could chime in.

Could the actuation of the injectors be that sensitive to pressure?? As in the force trying to get in is slowing down the moving parts??
 

Charles

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WOW that's a stretch. Now we need dyno runs and track times for a fuel PSI issue??

Jesus this BS about track time and dynos IS REALLY out of control.:fustrate::fustrate: Maybe I need a few dyno runs to show how my new oil has improved my MPGs.



In little kid terms that maybe even you can understand....


You:

Gee golly.... I sure do wonder if my truck makes more power with my fuel regulator set at ___psi, ___psi, or ___psi...


Anyone with a brain:

Well.... if you want to measure power, there are these devices readily available all across the country, and the world for that matter, where you can plunk down a few bucks and measure exxxxaaaaacccctly what you want to know.... power. They are called dynamometers.


So.... spend how much on a regulated return fuel system? How many hours of time on the truck? How many hours in this thread or anywhere else, even sitting on the sh*tter at home just wondering about this topic???

Vs 50 to 75 bucks and 1 hour of your time to KNOW the answer.


Yeah, that's just silly, lol.



Dynofobia.
 

Charles

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Charles...Renae at Quick Tricks already dyno'd his truck by lowering the pressure before each pull. He said that he made more power each time he lowered the PSI. Not sure if he's a member on here or not, but if he is....maybe he could chime in.

Cool, then what's the point of the thread? Question answered.


I thought track times were what was being used as the indicator. My bad.


So everyone lower the pressure to the value that made the most power when power was ACTUALLY tested by a machine made to do it.... not some dumb asses ass checks, lol.

Done.
 

09stroker

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WOW that's a stretch. Now we need dyno runs and track times for a fuel PSI issue??

Jesus this BS about track time and dynos IS REALLY out of control.:fustrate::fustrate: Maybe I need a few dyno runs to show how my new oil has improved my MPGs.

The whole point of this thread was different pressure yields different power, maybe you missed it. :fustrate::fustrate:
 

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