Dads 03, again.

[Mdub707]

Ok then how about this. On my 05, I have stiction. I know that to be true. But, on buzz test 1,3,5, and 8 either click really weak or just don't click. Its random and different every time i do the test, but it is always the same 4. That a sign of a bad solenoid on the injector itself?

So if plugging dads in doesn't change how it starts, then more than likely he doesn't have a glow plug related issue?

Are you positive it's not 2,3,5,8? I'm still suspecting the FICM here. Are you testing it with a stone cold motor?

You are correct.. IMO, you don't have the correct voltage either comming from the battery's or the FICM..

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Yea that's my thinking. Like I said we have the battery issue solved. I'm checking ficm voltages tomorrow to see if there is an issue there. I know that isn't the original ficm because it was replaced maybe 5-6 years ago (dude charged him $700 for a new one!), but with that bad battery, I'm scared he ruined this one.

$700 is cheap, they're usually around $900 from Ford, without programming or labor to put it in. You can get 1/2 shells cheaper now, but I would just repair the current units you have.

It is possible.. Sometimes testing the FICM voltage and getting the 48 that your looking for doesn't mean the FICM is good but with the symptoms your having my guess is, if in fact your FICM is the culprit, it will read low key on.. The harness is in good shape correct?

This is a good point, it is very possible to have a FICM read 48V under all three conditions and it still be bad. I have several of them on my bench now.

 

[6speedsd]

I'm absolutely positive on my 05 it is 1,3,5,8. I know what you are getting at though. I've checked and double checked to be positive. First 3 on passengers side and last one on drivers side. And yes, stone cold motor.

Ok, on the 03, checked ficm this morning. 48.5v across the board. Truck cranked a little faster with that new battery, but went dead as soon as it fired. Tried again, fired over, gave a little throttle and it stayed running. Idles smooth as butter. Doesn't act like this every single time, but does the majority of cold starts. Sometimes, although rare, you cycle the key, wait for injectors to stop buzzing, an it fires right up. Truck ALWAYS idles perfect no matter how cold it is. And always fires right up when up to op temp. Have checked fuel pressure, builds to 50lbs key on almost immediately.

 

[Lassie]

I just buzzed (externally) an injector recently changed and a brand new injector one after the other. The new injector is much louder than the worn injector! I guess stiction or worn spool valves can be caught this way. Seems the valve is drug down considerably in the worn injector. It's an audible test but it seems repeatable.

If you have access to a new injector, try this on your dad's truck on each hole that you suspect an issue. He may have multiple injector issues.

 

[Mdub707]

Yeah if you're only doing a buzz test, you can just swap the injectors around that you have now, or swap the injector plugs too, but don't try and start it like that.

Lassie, I've been thinking about tearing apart a spare injector and seeing if I can't polish up a spool valve some how, or get new one's machined to rid stiction...

 

[6speedsd]

Ok so if I swap injector plugs, and do a buzz test again, the weak buzz/click should be a different number correct? Like if I switched 6 and 8, with 8 being the current weak one, after another buzz test 6 should become the weak one. Not sure if I explained that clearly but I think you get what I'm asking.

Only problem with that is I have an issue with 1,3,5 and 8. 8 could be checked this way, but it would be hard to get a harness to reach 1 or 3. 7 is supposedly good on my pass side, so I could swap 5 and 7.

 

[6speedsd]

I just buzzed (externally) an injector recently changed and a brand new injector one after the other. The new injector is much louder than the worn injector! I guess stiction or worn spool valves can be caught this way. Seems the valve is drug down considerably in the worn injector. It's an audible test but it seems repeatable.

This is what I'm talking about. You can hear a definite difference from 1,3,5, and 8 to the way 2,4,6, and 7 sound.

 

[6speedsd]

My last 2 posts refer to my 05.

As far as the 03, I did a buzz a couple weeks ago and couldn't get #8 to click. But I've done the test twice since then and all 8 click loud and clear. And as I've said, power balance stays flat across the board even when we can feel that miss going down the road. Here lately it doesn't seem like that miss wants to clear up like typical stiction would. We drove nearly a half hour this morning in it and she was still missing after that time.

I've considered LPO, but as soon as you turn the key to try and start it the oil pressure gauge on the cluster comes up. ICP shows 600+ psi while cranking. I've run out of ideas to check!

 

[6speedsd]

Ok so if I swap injector plugs, and do a buzz test again, the weak buzz/click should be a different number correct? Like if I switched 6 and 8, with 8 being the current weak one, after another buzz test 6 should become the weak one. Not sure if I explained that clearly but I think you get what I'm asking.

Only problem with that is I have an issue with 1,3,5 and 8. 8 could be checked this way, but it would be hard to get a harness to reach 1 or 3. 7 is supposedly good on my pass side, so I could swap 5 and 7.

Nevermind. I'm over thinking and confusing myself again. Swapping injector plugs will just rule out a wiring or FICM problem.

 

[Mdub707]

Exactly, if the problem follows the injector harness you know it's not your injectors, but if the number pops up as a new number, it's likely the injector it's plugged in to. Kind of gives you a point to look for.

On your 03 truck, it sounds like you might just need a new injector on whatever hole you're having issues there. Despite passing buzz and cylinder contribution tests. Did you ever end up trying the rev-x to see if the problem went away? That would be my next step before replacement.

As for the 05, my guess is FICM. Can you try swapping the FICM from the 03 on to the 05 and see what you have?

 

[Lassie]

My last 2 posts refer to my 05.

As far as the 03, I did a buzz a couple weeks ago and couldn't get #8 to click. But I've done the test twice since then and all 8 click loud and clear. And as I've said, power balance stays flat across the board even when we can feel that miss going down the road. Here lately it doesn't seem like that miss wants to clear up like typical stiction would. We drove nearly a half hour this morning in it and she was still missing after that time.

I've considered LPO, but as soon as you turn the key to try and start it the oil pressure gauge on the cluster comes up. ICP shows 600+ psi while cranking. I've run out of ideas to check!

Spool valve wear behaves similar to stiction, but warming up doesn't help as much. You said his oil change durations were long, I bet his spools are worn. The spool valve has very tight tolerances and when they are worn (from heavily diluted oil), they can shift vertically and stick. It seems worn spool valves miss a lot while lightly loaded and cruising speed. (OD)

It is sometimes tough to simulate the miss, but you should see a miss you can feel on the power balance. I have found bad injectors that were causing this kind of miss by power braking at a steady RPM and running the PB. On the early 6.0s, AE will allow you to set RPM and it will hold there. On the 05s and up, it seems the RPM will only stay where you set for a short time.

 

[Lassie]

Yeah if you're only doing a buzz test, you can just swap the injectors around that you have now, or swap the injector plugs too, but don't try and start it like that.

Lassie, I've been thinking about tearing apart a spare injector and seeing if I can't polish up a spool valve some how, or get new one's machined to rid stiction...

I've thought about pulling the spool valves and soaking them in a solvent when I suspected stiction, but it's too common to have wear in the spool valve and barrel/plunger also. It's a lot of work for a trial with a high chance of failure.

The wear problems with the injectors are simply that...loss of material. I don't see any way to fix, other than new wear parts.

Too much in these trucks needs good oil. How many miles on the 03? If his injector spools are wearing from oil dilution, the turbo bearings probably arent far behind.

 

[6speedsd]

I'm going to try swapping injector plugs on the 05 this weekend. Won't really get a chance to before Saturday.

Might try swapping ficms between his and mine as well. I live an hour away from dad, so getting to a point where both trucks are cold is tough. I drive an hour to his house, park mine and get in his to leave and go work. When mine is cold, his is warm, and vice versa.

Roughly 145,000 on the 03. After talking more with him, he claims he has never gone over 6000 miles on an oil change, running Amsoil. Had a new turbo installed under warranty somewhere around 2005.

Will try the power brake trick and do a power balance on it. AE only lets you set rpms at about 1150. Can't remember if it misses then or if the rpms need to be a little higher. But it will definitely miss if you rev it up in park. Just don't remember at what rpm.

 

[Mdub707]

Well is it actually loss of material? If it is, I agree, likely no way around it. Others who have had a few injectors apart have told me they find a "build up" of sorts on the spool valves, like a yellow tint.

Have you read about the guys who have tried marvel mystery oil as well? Also read about guys using ATF for engine oil to clean it out and then refill with regular oil and problems disappear.

I guess I wont really know if it's feasible until I pull one apart and scope out the spool valve area. At this point, if you have an injector or two that have stiction so bad they basically need replacement anyways, why not try something with it?

If there's issues with the barrel and plunger, likely new parts would be needed. Good time to upgrade I suppose...

 

[6speedsd]

I've read about using Marvels. Some say it works, others say its dangerous. I'm just too leery to try it.

 

[Mdub707]

Same here man. I'd rather pull the injector apart and physically see what is going on with it before trying anything. I'm not opposed to pulling them apart and letting parts soak in marvel mystery oil though, but I certainly don't feel comfortable dumping it into my engine. At least letting parts soak is more controllable.

 

[Lassie]

I've got a truck here with 5 now that are terrible cold. As bad as any I've seen. Truck was at 11k on oil when got here. Oil level was very high. It's a BASS trail truck that lives at shows and tows everywhere it goes. Has only 120k miles. He is deciding whether or not just do all 8.

The truck starts and idles perfect and when hot runs like a dream. Nastiest, most hardheaded cold natured truck though. Until 165, she is so rough, you'd swear it was coming apart when you try to accelerate. Most clearcut case of stiction there is. I've read about the Marvel and the sea foam and those things, but I just don't know if I'm comfortable with it. Has anyone ever pulled 8 and soaked just the spool valves in the stuff? If anyone has ever done that and been successful, I'd try it on this one, but I'd like to hear someone else has had some success. I've not been impressed with rev x yet.

 

[Mdub707]

Lassie, I'm in the exact same situation right now, mine is pretty bad and rev-x doesn't completely cure it, but helps tremendously. I even tried 1 bottle vs. 2. The first bottle of rev-x got rid of 75% of the issues I'd say, and the second bottle got me to 85-90%, but I still have SOME stiction. Same thing, starts and idles like a dream, and runs great up to temp, but it's real bad until up to temp now. I did just recently have new gaskets and ARP's put in with a whole bunch of other updates, so I am only using 15w-40 oil currently as well vs. my normal T6. I'm going to run this oil for ~1k miles and drain and fill with T6 again and will likely try archoil this time. I've heard good things about it, and it's supposed to be better than the rev-x. As far as anyone taking parts off and soaking them, I've not heard of that. However, lubeowner I believe has taken them apart and said he "polished" them up with an emery cloth or something similar and got rid of stiction that way...

 

[Lassie]

I may be the guinea pig....the owner is pretty keen on saving money. I'm going to run it by him and if he feels it's worth a try, I'll do it. I'm pretty curious to see what his spool valves look like anyway.

Op...Sorry for the derail, but maybe this will help you too.

 

[Mdub707]

If he's at the point where he's considering replacing, it may be worth a shot! If you do go through with it, take some pictures and do a write up on it, many 6.0 owners will be forever grateful!

OP, yes, sorry, we totally got off track from your problems. It sounds like you've at least got some things to check out on both trucks though, let us know what you find out.

 

[6speedsd]

Well, we might be getting somewhere with the 03. Had him plug it up last night. Temps were right around freezing. Tried to crank this morning, turned over for maybe 2-3 seconds and fired right up! Headed down the road now, still has a slight miss but nowhere near what it was. I've stated it didn't crank any better plugged in before, but that was before we found the bad battery. Me thinks his cold start issue is glow plug related. And that miss is indeed stiction, or worn spools. I'm going to get him some Revex or Archoil on the next oil change, and check the ohms on the GP's and module and see what happens. At least we are headed in the right direction.