DocBar's Build Issues

[DocBar]

Why do you think reliability and 650Hp are mutually exclusive?

I wouldn't say they are mutually exclusive, but in my very limited experience, I would advise people to be prepared to do a little wrenching and to have patience while getting the bugs worked out.

I'm no IDE or RWDE, so can you have a 650hp truck that is still a funtional tow vehicle/DD with reliability? Where do you get into turbo issues, as far as tuning injectors down for towing but still being responsive enough? Single or compound set up? I really like the idea of a pro charger, but there aren't enough people running them to convince me that they're reliable. Maybe Empire will donate one to me and I'll use it for a testbed and advertise it for them!:toast:

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I wouldn't say they are mutually exclusive, but in my very limited experience, I would advise people to be prepared to do a little wrenching and to have patience while getting the bugs worked out.

I'm no IDE or RWDE, so can you have a 650hp truck that is still a funtional tow vehicle/DD with reliability? Where do you get into turbo issues, as far as tuning injectors down for towing but still being responsive enough? Single or compound set up? I really like the idea of a pro charger, but there aren't enough people running them to convince me that they're reliable. Maybe Empire will donate one to me and I'll use it for a testbed and advertise it for them!:toast:

You most certainly can have a 650hp capable truck that is a functional tow vehicle/DD with reliability - but it takes time, patience, the right parts, figuring out potential failure modes and taking care of it before its an issue. Personally in my mind that means a set of compounds - but I tow REALLY heavy and like low end response. Personally I don't think the procharger setups have quite proven themselves in a DD/tow pig except in maybe one or two examples - compounds are everywhere doing what they do across all makes. A fact of life though is that if you want to push something into the outer skirts of what is the norm - then you need to get dirty, know what you have, know where the problems might be, etc... this is one reason why you don't see a list of 650hp capable 7.3s that are driven daily, tow, etc... it takes a good bit of money to get a stable enough platform if you start with PMRs, then it takes a combo of parts to meet your goals, which again is a spendy list of upgrades. Can it be done? sure. Can it be reliable? Sure. Is it easy? Nothing worth doing ever is. BTW - none of this was a dig at you - as I am loosely familiar with your ongoing build, issues, etc... its just my view point.

That being said - I do drive a 650hp capable truck daily - and I do tow heavy - and its just cheaper and easier to do it on a common rail platform. I have about 80K miles so far on it with the current setup. Its nothing more than some turbos, a fuel system, a tune, and a transmission to hold it. I've never pulled the valve covers, still rocking stock injectors, stock head bolts, etc.... not saying I don't love my 7.3s - because I do - but they are my toys and my novelties once you start getting to about 650hp on fuel and above.

 

[DocBar]

You most certainly can have a 650hp capable truck that is a functional tow vehicle/DD with reliability - but it takes time, patience, the right parts, figuring out potential failure modes and taking care of it before its an issue. Personally in my mind that means a set of compounds - but I tow REALLY heavy and like low end response. Personally I don't think the procharger setups have quite proven themselves in a DD/tow pig except in maybe one or two examples - compounds are everywhere doing what they do across all makes. A fact of life though is that if you want to push something into the outer skirts of what is the norm - then you need to get dirty, know what you have, know where the problems might be, etc... this is one reason why you don't see a list of 650hp capable 7.3s that are driven daily, tow, etc... it takes a good bit of money to get a stable enough platform if you start with PMRs, then it takes a combo of parts to meet your goals, which again is a spendy list of upgrades. Can it be done? sure. Can it be reliable? Sure. Is it easy? Nothing worth doing ever is. BTW - none of this was a dig at you - as I am loosely familiar with your ongoing build, issues, etc... its just my view point.

That being said - I do drive a 650hp capable truck daily - and I do tow heavy - and its just cheaper and easier to do it on a common rail platform. I have about 80K miles so far on it with the current setup. Its nothing more than some turbos, a fuel system, a tune, and a transmission to hold it. I've never pulled the valve covers, still rocking stock injectors, stock head bolts, etc.... not saying I don't love my 7.3s - because I do - but they are my toys and my novelties once you start getting to about 650hp on fuel and above.

That was a great answer. I was asking because I have spent the $$ on the basics. Short of partially filling the block and going with a girdle instead of a bedplate, my motor is about as built as it can be.
I don't have the luxury of being able to do much wrenching myself. I'm not against it, but I live out of hotels or a 5th wheel. They get mad at vehicles with hoods in the air and oil on the ground. Not to mention that "reliable" means not having to do that. Well, after the bugs are worked out. I'm learning patience, by the dollar it seems, but I'm learning.

My truck is having all kinds of issues and it's very hard to tell what they are since I don't have a datalogger like AE or similar. It could be ICP, IPR, HPOP, injectors, or fuel. I have a big hp build, but only running a 38R and 250/100 remans. That's what I would call a medium hp build, based on injectors and turbo. I get great performance sometimes, good performance sometimes and crappy performance sometimes. I just had the truck live tuned a little over a week ago and still have issues. I'm sitting with $21K in a motor and about $2K in diagnostics/testing and it's still not running like it should. Do I just throw more $$ at it and buy a new ICP and IPR, hoping that fixes the problem? Did my wife cast some kind of evil spell over my truck because of the $$ spent and being spent? Do we need to redefine "reliable"? Yes my truck runs, but the last time I pulled my 11K# 5th wheel, I got about 5-6 mpg and had to stay in the throttle. That's with a 38R. How often would I need to stay in the throttle with compounds? They are laggier, right? I'm asking, not being a smart-alec.

 

[neverkickn]

That was a great answer. I was asking because I have spent the $$ on the basics. Short of partially filling the block and going with a girdle instead of a bedplate, my motor is about as built as it can be.
I don't have the luxury of being able to do much wrenching myself. I'm not against it, but I live out of hotels or a 5th wheel. They get mad at vehicles with hoods in the air and oil on the ground. Not to mention that "reliable" means not having to do that. Well, after the bugs are worked out. I'm learning patience, by the dollar it seems, but I'm learning.

My truck is having all kinds of issues and it's very hard to tell what they are since I don't have a datalogger like AE or similar. It could be ICP, IPR, HPOP, injectors, or fuel. I have a big hp build, but only running a 38R and 250/100 remans. That's what I would call a medium hp build, based on injectors and turbo. I get great performance sometimes, good performance sometimes and crappy performance sometimes. I just had the truck live tuned a little over a week ago and still have issues. I'm sitting with $21K in a motor and about $2K in diagnostics/testing and it's still not running like it should. Do I just throw more $$ at it and buy a new ICP and IPR, hoping that fixes the problem? Did my wife cast some kind of evil spell over my truck because of the $$ spent and being spent? Do we need to redefine "reliable"? Yes my truck runs, but the last time I pulled my 11K# 5th wheel, I got about 5-6 mpg and had to stay in the throttle. That's with a 38R. How often would I need to stay in the throttle with compounds? They are laggier, right? I'm asking, not being a smart-alec.

I think you need to put your hpo system under a microscope. You have spent 21k on the goods, it is time to spend the 400 or whatever on ae and get some data logs. You should start a tech thread if you haven't already and post up your issues and some values.

BTW, I understand your frustration VERY well and I am only running sub 400 hp, or supposed to be.

 

[DocBar]

I think you need to put your hpo system under a microscope. You have spent 21k on the goods, it is time to spend the 400 or whatever on ae and get some data logs. You should start a tech thread if you haven't already and post up your issues and some values.

BTW, I understand your frustration VERY well and I am only running sub 400 hp, or supposed to be.

I've just about come to the conclusion that I need AE, but I'm a diesel idiot and don't have the knowledge or experience to interpret what I see from that. Maybe emailing datalogs to others would help, but is that better than a live session? How do you datalog "that vibration", "that shudder", that "squeaky noise"? You know, all of those symptoms that disappear when you visit the mechanic.

 

[ToMang07]

I've just about come to the conclusion that I need AE, but I'm a diesel idiot and don't have the knowledge or experience to interpret what I see from that. Maybe emailing datalogs to others would help, but is that better than a live session? How do you datalog "that vibration", "that shudder", that "squeaky noise"? You know, all of those symptoms that disappear when you visit the mechanic.

It doesn't replace a mechanic or knowledge... but it sure helps eliminate A LOT of guesswork, and helps eliminate some potential causes. I am VERY happy with my AE, but I have a lot of learning to do with it still!

 

[neverkickn]

I've just about come to the conclusion that I need AE, but I'm a diesel idiot and don't have the knowledge or experience to interpret what I see from that. Maybe emailing datalogs to others would help, but is that better than a live session? How do you datalog "that vibration", "that shudder", that "squeaky noise"? You know, all of those symptoms that disappear when you visit the mechanic.

I think that if you are willing and able (as in have the ability to read and log data) then there are people here that can help you interpret it.

The shudders and vibrations you mentioned, are they actual symptoms that you have experienced?

I believe you should start a thread that outlines your issues specifically. Oh and tomorrow, call Dennis at ITP, or whatever they are calling it now for a copy of AE.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

That was a great answer. I was asking because I have spent the $$ on the basics. Short of partially filling the block and going with a girdle instead of a bedplate, my motor is about as built as it can be.
I don't have the luxury of being able to do much wrenching myself. I'm not against it, but I live out of hotels or a 5th wheel. They get mad at vehicles with hoods in the air and oil on the ground. Not to mention that "reliable" means not having to do that. Well, after the bugs are worked out. I'm learning patience, by the dollar it seems, but I'm learning.

My truck is having all kinds of issues and it's very hard to tell what they are since I don't have a datalogger like AE or similar. It could be ICP, IPR, HPOP, injectors, or fuel. I have a big hp build, but only running a 38R and 250/100 remans. That's what I would call a medium hp build, based on injectors and turbo. I get great performance sometimes, good performance sometimes and crappy performance sometimes. I just had the truck live tuned a little over a week ago and still have issues. I'm sitting with $21K in a motor and about $2K in diagnostics/testing and it's still not running like it should. Do I just throw more $$ at it and buy a new ICP and IPR, hoping that fixes the problem? Did my wife cast some kind of evil spell over my truck because of the $$ spent and being spent? Do we need to redefine "reliable"? Yes my truck runs, but the last time I pulled my 11K# 5th wheel, I got about 5-6 mpg and had to stay in the throttle. That's with a 38R. How often would I need to stay in the throttle with compounds? They are laggier, right? I'm asking, not being a smart-alec.

Based on this brief description - I would say you have an issue somewhere - and its in the HPO system somewhere... that means oil feed to the reservoir, reservoir, pump, IPR, lines, injectors, etc... Your truck should be snappy and consistent. Start a thread here that outlines your issues - I've seen the huge thread over on PSN - and honestly I haven't read but a fraction of it. Of course I'm going to ask for some AE info that you don't have, I'm going to ask what oil you're running, as well as any additives, and I'm going to ask if there are any scenarios where it always seems to run great, or it always seems to run like crap.

Reliable is jumping in, turning the key, and not worrying about it. Period.

We can get into the merits of compounds - but until you fix the underlying issue - it doesn't matter, throwing more money and turbos at it won't fix it. You have a solid base that just needs to have the "kinks" worked out - and unfortunately I have yet to see a build that didn't have some kinks. These aren't like small block chevy engines where you can almost go down to the grocery store to buy parts and they work out of the box.

To give you a for instance - last summer I did what I call a "medium power build" for a local guy that is doing nothing but truck pulling his truck. It has a Gen3 pump, Custom S400 charger, 400/200 sticks, fuel system, etc... all on the stock bottom end (forged rod truck). I didn't get a chance to fully test it before it left my shop due to some parts issues and timing and whatever - the list goes on... the truck ran good out of the gate, but then performance started to suffer, and then suffer some more.... I brought back into the shop and started diagnosing.... I found it wasn't making ICP and started to track down issues.... first thing I found was a blown seal on the front of the Gen3.... fixed that and went testing again.... it was noticably better, but fell off after the initial punch.... pulled the sticks because of some development work I was questioning - nothing wrong... pulled the stock HPOP and the IPR - tossed it all back together and BAM - runs like a champ, launches hard and pulls like a damn freight train. The moral of the story is its probably not one big issue plaguing you - its lots of small issues making your experience less than desirable.

 

[TrailerHauler]

How often would I need to stay in the throttle with compounds? They are laggier, right? I'm asking, not being a smart-alec.

Compounds are the opposite of laggy! When a set of chargers are properly paired and set up properly there is no lag, or almost no lag. However I don't think your turbo (turbos) selection will dictate how often you will need to stay into the throttle to keep a load moving. Your turbo selection is only part of a large equation of things that will determine how easily you can move a load.

 

[DocBar]

I think that if you are willing and able (as in have the ability to read and log data) then there are people here that can help you interpret it.

The shudders and vibrations you mentioned, are they actual symptoms that you have experienced?

I believe you should start a thread that outlines your issues specifically. Oh and tomorrow, call Dennis at ITP, or whatever they are calling it now for a copy of AE.

The shudders and vibrations are actual symptoms I've experienced. The odd part is that they're strobger with one chip and not so much with the other. They could be a multitude of problems, but it's odd that they follow one chip predominately.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

The shudders and vibrations are actual symptoms I've experienced. The odd part is that they're strobger with one chip and not so much with the other. They could be a multitude of problems, but it's odd that they follow one chip predominately.

It might not be odd for it to follow one chip predominately if the tuners actually call for and obtain fuel very differently from each other. Some methods of tuning could mask problems while other methods expound upon the problems - most notably from my experience this occurs predominately with HPO problems. One tune will cause the truck to work hard to make say 2200psi and be doggy, while the other tune will sing along at 3Kpsi all day long and be peppy as hell with no other change.

 

[neverkickn]

The shudders and vibrations are actual symptoms I've experienced. The odd part is that they're strobger with one chip and not so much with the other. They could be a multitude of problems, but it's odd that they follow one chip predominately.

Not odd to me, as what you are saying is like a playback of my own personal experiences. There are people here that can and will help you but you will need to be able to get the data which means you will need to make a phone call tomorrow.

Not trying to be pushy, just saying that the sooner you have the ability to read your truck, the sooner you will have the information that will lead to a diagnosis. The other option of course is to drop it off at a shop and have them do the work for you.

 

[neverkickn]

holy thread move batman.I was in one, and then.........BAM! LOL

 

[Hotrodtractor]

holy thread move batman.I was in one, and then.........BAM! LOL

Its those damn sneaky mods... you never know when one is around..... LOL

 

[DocBar]

Based on this brief description - I would say you have an issue somewhere - and its in the HPO system somewhere... that means oil feed to the reservoir, reservoir, pump, IPR, lines, injectors, etc... Your truck should be snappy and consistent. Start a thread here that outlines your issues - I've seen the huge thread over on PSN - and honestly I haven't read but a fraction of it. Of course I'm going to ask for some AE info that you don't have, I'm going to ask what oil you're running, as well as any additives, and I'm going to ask if there are any scenarios where it always seems to run great, or it always seems to run like crap.

Reliable is jumping in, turning the key, and not worrying about it. Period.

We can get into the merits of compounds - but until you fix the underlying issue - it doesn't matter, throwing more money and turbos at it won't fix it. You have a solid base that just needs to have the "kinks" worked out - and unfortunately I have yet to see a build that didn't have some kinks. These aren't like small block chevy engines where you can almost go down to the grocery store to buy parts and they work out of the box.

To give you a for instance - last summer I did what I call a "medium power build" for a local guy that is doing nothing but truck pulling his truck. It has a Gen3 pump, Custom S400 charger, 400/200 sticks, fuel system, etc... all on the stock bottom end (forged rod truck). I didn't get a chance to fully test it before it left my shop due to some parts issues and timing and whatever - the list goes on... the truck ran good out of the gate, but then performance started to suffer, and then suffer some more.... I brought back into the shop and started diagnosing.... I found it wasn't making ICP and started to track down issues.... first thing I found was a blown seal on the front of the Gen3.... fixed that and went testing again.... it was noticably better, but fell off after the initial punch.... pulled the sticks because of some development work I was questioning - nothing wrong... pulled the stock HPOP and the IPR - tossed it all back together and BAM - runs like a champ, launches hard and pulls like a damn freight train. The moral of the story is its probably not one big issue plaguing you - its lots of small issues making your experience less than desirable.

I have exactly the same opinion as you do. The unfortunate part is that I'm 1,000 miles away (literally) from the builder and depend on this truck every day. I started a thread on PSN called "An honest opinion on high hp builds". Some took this as me bashing the builders/vendors that I used, but that wasn't the intent. The intent was to point out that these builds vary from truck to truck. Some get great builds, some get crappy builds, most get so-so builds with bugs to work out. It tends to vary by truck more than builder. There's no AHA!! that can be pointed to. It's these multiple, minor bugs that need to be worked out. I know for a fact that I've had injector, hpop, and fuel issues. Damn. Narrow that down. It would take a very good builder some time to work these issues out. I need my truck today. I can't afford a rental. I can't afford the time off to drive my truck to my builder and fly back to my job and rent a vehicle. I paid well over $20K to avoid these issues, only to confront them with a pissed off wife and a pissed of me. I now understand that this is part of the process. There will be bugs and there will be down time. That leads me to seriously question the reliability issue. My builder had the truck for nearly 3 months. I was in *****ia when the engine was built. 3 months + $20K should equal bulletproof. I don;t expect my builder drive the truck every day for a month or more, so the logical conclusion is that these builds aren't "reliable". They can get that way, but usually only after trial and error. That's nobody's fault. That's just the nature of the 7.3L beast.

 

[DocBar]

holy thread move batman.I was in one, and then.........BAM! LOL

ROFL!!! I said the same damned thing!!! This was not meant to be!! More bad karma for me and my truck!!!!

 

[neverkickn]

Damn, your wife is pissed too?

 

[DocBar]

Damn, your wife is pissed too?

You have no idea how pissed. It cut into her getting her nails done and her hair did. I'm talking PISSED!!! Still. To this day.

 

[neverkickn]

Oh I think I know!

I wrench on my truck in a warehouse 10 miles away from my house. After that I change clothes and stop by the carwash on the way home to pressure wash the crud from underneath my fingernails in hopes that she wont find out what I have been doing.

I feel like a freakin alcoholic......LOL

 

[DocBar]

Oh I think I know!

I wrench on my truck in a warehouse 10 miles away from my house. After that I change clothes and stop by the carwash on the way home to pressure wash the crud from underneath my fingernails in hopes that she wont find out what I have been doing.

I feel like a freakin alcoholic......LOL

:grouphug:
I'm sorry, but that;s just sad and pathetic. Man up and become that alcoholic. Or you can be a candyass like me and pay for all the wrenching. At $90 per hr. Even renting a warehouse, you're coming out cheaper.