Seriously looking into compounds... Need help tho

silverpsd_06

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Brian used a 475 or 480 with a big turbine side to it so he didn't have to gate.. Don't quote me on that. I would go with a .91 housing to make up the difference I think all the 400 frame turbos have pretty close to the same turbine side in them i know my 465 was f'in huge compared to a 366
 

DocBar

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So was I way off base in my thinking that the HP turbo's ability to flow higher cfm, in a compound set up, is more important than its ability to provide boost after the LPturbo lights off?
 

silverpsd_06

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It doesn't have to flow high amounts of air for the HP needs to spool quickly and get the ball rolling. Its up to the atmosphere to flow the mass volume of air. You need to also stop looking at the super high boost numbers.. It doesn't matter, you're after volume not necessarily density. You could be pushing hundreds of pounds of boost with the smallest turbo you could find (if it would hold together) and literally Get your ass handed to you by a moderately sized turbo making 10psi all other things equal. Its a cool gauge to watch swing back and forth but its irrelevant beyond the standpoint of tuning your gates
 

silverpsd_06

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Oh and you do not have to pull the motor to put a drain for the atmosphere in the oil pan for whoever asked or was discussing that question or options for it
 

Blowby

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It doesn't have to flow high amounts of air for the HP needs to spool quickly and get the ball rolling. Its up to the atmosphere to flow the mass volume of air. You need to also stop looking at the super high boost numbers.. It doesn't matter, you're after volume not necessarily density. You could be pushing hundreds of pounds of boost with the smallest turbo you could find (if it would hold together) and literally Get your ass handed to you by a moderately sized turbo making 10psi all other things equal. Its a cool gauge to watch swing back and forth but its irrelevant beyond the standpoint of tuning your gates

Two balloons filled to the same diameter.
One was filled by a turbo with outlet temps high and out of it's map.
The other was filled by a turbo having cooler outlet temps and in it's sweet spot on the map.

Volume is the same, density is not.
 

Charles

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Seems like you guys have talking this topic out pretty well.

I would say from my experience, the next setup I do will probably have a V60 gate on the second stage and a V44 on the first.

Why gate both? Because as Mike said, so you can decide your balance, aside from merely controlling manifold pressure. If you just pull fuel to control boost you will never make the same power without overboosting, and more importantly, won't have any way to alter the amount of PR coming from either stage without physically pulling the housing on the first stage and swapping it out. Even then, you will likely never find one large enough to actually control it. Bare in mind.... once the second stage pumps up the boost to the engine, that first stage charger is basically being driven from a 900+ cube engine in terms of how it reacts. Good luck finding a housing to keep that in check while allowing you to run a PR balance of your choosing between chargers.

As for sizing the stages.... the 66mm second stage seems to be a winner. It will jump up good on a 7.3 and make boost comfortably, as well as handle power output needs at rpm ranges below the point where the first stage lights off easily. And that's all it needs to do. Total power and such don't play a role in selection of the second stage charger. Make it jump up on boost to get your truck out of the hole and then gate accordingly. Almost any charger can handle the duties of the second stage on one of these engines. There is nothing to be gained from a larger unit aside from more spooltime at the power levels we're discussing here.

For the first stage, it must be sized for the boost you intend to run, at the rpm you intend to make that boost, accounting for any intercooling.

My first setup used a GT4718 with an 88mm inducer and a ~93mm turbine inducer. It would run 1:1 boost drive or better up to 60psi on the manifold. Beyond that it would fall short, with boost:drive coming in at say 80lbs drive to 70lbs boost IIRC, getting worse as you drove it harder. The GT47 turbine was TOO SMALL for the exhaust flow.

Going to a GT55 with a 94mm inducer and 112mm turbine inducer the boost jumped from 65 to 80+ on the exact same wastegate settings. The turbine is SO much more efficient. I haven't checked the boost:drive, but I know it's solid well above 70psi now. Probably 1:1 to 80 or so if I had to guess. maybe better. And the spool is almost exactly the same. You can tell that it's a bit off from the 47, but it really doesn't matter because the tires are already spinning anyway...

Sizing the intermedite pipe (between second stage turbo turbine and first stage turbo turbine) I would use a 3". I went 3" out of the 38R and then 3.5 after the second stage gate dumped in and it's probably too large. It also doesn't fit well in a T-6 flange. Just go 3" IMO. Keep velocity high.

If at all possible, cool both stages.


On Edit:

I would have added tons of pictures but Webshots died and all my pictures died with it.
 
Last edited:

DocBar

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It doesn't have to flow high amounts of air for the HP needs to spool quickly and get the ball rolling. Its up to the atmosphere to flow the mass volume of air. You need to also stop looking at the super high boost numbers.. It doesn't matter, you're after volume not necessarily density. You could be pushing hundreds of pounds of boost with the smallest turbo you could find (if it would hold together) and literally Get your ass handed to you by a moderately sized turbo making 10psi all other things equal. Its a cool gauge to watch swing back and forth but its irrelevant beyond the standpoint of tuning your gates
My thinking on the subject is better than my wording. The bolded is what I was trying to get at.
 

DocBar

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Seems like you guys have talking this topic out pretty well.

I would say from my experience, the next setup I do will probably have a V60 gate on the second stage and a V44 on the first.

Why gate both? Because as Mike said, so you can decide your balance, aside from merely controlling manifold pressure. If you just pull fuel to control boost you will never make the same power without overboosting, and more importantly, won't have any way to alter the amount of PR coming from either stage without physically pulling the housing on the first stage and swapping it out. Even then, you will likely never find one large enough to actually control it. Bare in mind.... once the second stage pumps up the boost to the engine, that first stage charger is basically being driven from a 900+ cube engine in terms of how it reacts. Good luck finding a housing to keep that in check while allowing you to run a PR balance of your choosing between chargers.

As for sizing the stages.... the 66mm second stage seems to be a winner. It will jump up good on a 7.3 and make boost comfortably, as well as handle power output needs at rpm ranges below the point where the first stage lights off easily. And that's all it needs to do. Total power and such don't play a role in selection of the second stage charger. Make it jump up on boost to get your truck out of the hole and then gate accordingly. Almost any charger can handle the duties of the second stage on one of these engines. There is nothing to be gained from a larger unit aside from more spooltime at the power levels we're discussing here.

For the first stage, it must be sized for the boost you intend to run, at the rpm you intend to make that boost, accounting for any intercooling.

My first setup used a GT4718 with an 88mm inducer and a ~93mm turbine inducer. It would run 1:1 boost drive or better up to 60psi on the manifold. Beyond that it would fall short, with boost:drive coming in at say 80lbs drive to 70lbs boost IIRC, getting worse as you drove it harder. The GT47 turbine was TOO SMALL for the exhaust flow.

Going to a GT55 with a 94mm inducer and 112mm turbine inducer the boost jumped from 65 to 80+ on the exact same wastegate settings. The turbine is SO much more efficient. I haven't checked the boost:drive, but I know it's solid well above 70psi now. Probably 1:1 to 80 or so if I had to guess. maybe better. And the spool is almost exactly the same. You can tell that it's a bit off from the 47, but it really doesn't matter because the tires are already spinning anyway...

Sizing the intermedite pipe (between second stage turbo turbine and first stage turbo turbine) I would use a 3". I went 3" out of the 38R and then 3.5 after the second stage gate dumped in and it's probably too large. It also doesn't fit well in a T-6 flange. Just go 3" IMO. Keep velocity high.

If at all possible, cool both stages.


On Edit:

I would have added tons of pictures but Webshots died and all my pictures died with it.
Thanks for some great info, Charles.

Anybody have any good ideas on how to efficiently intercool both stages? I plan on intercooling between the LP and HP but would love to see some ideas on the subject of which stage to cool and why.
 

Vader's Fury

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What about using engine coolant? Like an air to water but circulate coolant through it.

Do that between the stages then through the stock inter cooler and into the engine.
 

Charles

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Place both chargers together, on the passenger's side of the engine. Then you run first to second and then both through the cooler and back to the engine again.

This also leaves the valley empty for a nice big intake plenum. On top of that, you can spray a fine mist of water ahead of the second stage for further cooling interstage.

I plan to do exactly that if I ever get my next move nailed down and pull this engine.

I will actually have a lift eye mounted to the charger setup and the whole thing will lift out of the way as a unit, much like a 6.4 setup.
 

lincolnlocker

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Place both chargers together, on the passenger's side of the engine. Then you run first to second and then both through the cooler and back to the engine again.

This also leaves the valley empty for a nice big intake plenum. On top of that, you can spray a fine mist of water ahead of the second stage for further cooling interstage.

I plan to do exactly that if I ever get my next move nailed down and pull this engine.

I will actually have a lift eye mounted to the charger setup and the whole thing will lift out of the way as a unit, much like a 6.4 setup.

how would you run the exhaust?

live life full throttle
 

DocBar

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Place both chargers together, on the passenger's side of the engine. Then you run first to second and then both through the cooler and back to the engine again.

This also leaves the valley empty for a nice big intake plenum. On top of that, you can spray a fine mist of water ahead of the second stage for further cooling interstage.

I plan to do exactly that if I ever get my next move nailed down and pull this engine.

I will actually have a lift eye mounted to the charger setup and the whole thing will lift out of the way as a unit, much like a 6.4 setup.
What do you have to lose when you put both chargers on pass. side? Have any pics of a mock up or install you care to share? I'm very interested in seeing this set up.
 

lincolnlocker

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Piping bro....:poke:


thanks Richard Cranium..




What do you have to lose when you put both chargers on pass. side? Have any pics of a mock up or install you care to share? I'm very interested in seeing this set up.

kinda what i was asking only in less words... guess i dont know where a good spot would be to run the exhaust piping.

i can look at all the pics then go pop the hood on one of my trucks and can barely see what was removed or how they found room to run the piping.

thats why i was asking how to run the exhaust? i cant see it in my head worth a ****...

maybe im not cut out for compounds on my daily driver and to be able to keep all the components in tact.

live life full throttle
 

TyCorr

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Run it around the back or even go from the collector over to the turbine flange. Nothing round.the back anyway.
 

907DAVE

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Kinda what I was thinking, flip the manifolds around and run it over to the turbo's.
 

TyCorr

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Thats why Im not rushing to do mine. I wanna look and have a plan how to do it. Plus Ima need.a.minute to get my welding skills brushed up. I never intended to put one in the valley and one not. Both in or both out.
 

Lang

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What injectors are you running? Sorry if you said earlier, skimmed through couldn't find it.
 

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