Again, going to try and respond to all......
30% are a good fit for some people and I have personally pushed them. Sometimes however, I have found that the 80% are actually cleaner because of the manufacturing process used and under towing conditions the 80% run slightly cooler than the 30% at the same power output.
Matt, all of our nozzles use the exact same process to manufacture with the exception of the 100%. They use more EH on them than the rest. The only reason for any to be less "CLEAN" is either A) Tuning or B) injector design.
I agree completely on the too-high pulse width statement from "tuners". I see it very often. However, my point being that if a person were to do a test with four 160-ish CC injectors of equal capacity - one with a stock nozzle and the others with a 30%, 100%, and even 400% - run at, say, 5.0mS ACTUAL at 3000 RPM ( 5.0mS isn't possible in a truck at that RPM, but on a flow bench have at it), and 3000 PSI, they would ALL fill your graduated cylinders the same amount after 1000 shots.......
And yet apparently some builders use test parameters just like what you posted.
Your test proves nothing other than the capacity of the injector is the same between the two. I like Nate's idea.
Maybe I didn't simplify this enough. Show me a tuner that tunes less than 2.5ms for a 160cc injector and I will be surprised. Not that it isn't happening, but I sure haven't seen it.
Why pay more for 100% nozzles when our 30% does the same, but possibly even better?
You will never, EVER see me tell somebody that 400/400 injectors will work well for ANYTHING. I QUIT tuning the 7.3L commercially/remotely because of unscrupulous businesses that would convince people that anything with a nozzle size of larger than 100% is completely streetable on the first iteration of tuning attempts....it just ain't happening - especially when remotely writing calibrations. I won't touch them because 90% of the people who read forums and see that someone is running 400% nozzles somewhat successfully will never be happy on their daily commute with kids in the back seat and groceries under the topper.
Yet everyday I see people ask what they should do with their mildly stock truck and responses come poring in
"you need large hybrids" :shrug:
This thread seems like a vendor trying to drum up business to me. Which is fine I guess. Lots of good points why the test really doesn't show much.
Maybe it just seems odd as I am one of the few that are not on here ramming parts down your throat on a daily basis. Ask anyone who has been around the last 10 years, I have always posted solely for the education of fellow enthusiast. We have been building "BETTER FUEL" injectors for several years now. We take a different approach to HEUI injectors then most apparently. As other brands have been sent in for repair/modify over the years. If some of you only knew what you had paid good money for actually flowed on a flow bench.
I did my research and went with 160/100% in my truck. They run very clean and cool no matter what I do with the truck and overall I am tickled with them.
160/30% seem pointless to me given the nozzles cost the same as the 100% (from some vendors anyway). Go larger and control with tuning. Pretty simple.
Just my opinion, I have never ran the 160/30% and I don't plan
Unlimited 400cc/200% hybrids + Gearhead tuning + S467.7=Towing friggin' machine
Haven't towed 10K+ at elevation with it to be fair though.
I've never ran smaller than 200% nozzles....I'm just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event. My truck idles near stock, cold weather performance/starting like stock, 550-600 egts on flat ground at 65 mph unloaded. Makes more power than you can use on the street as a DD, and then historically averages 18-19 mpg as a ZF6 truck.
What advantages are there to smaller than 200% nozzles? Honest question.
Did I just luck out with my injector builder/tuner product relationship?
Curious, but do you even know how long it takes to flow 400cc out a 200% nozzle?? If you don't use that 400cc. why have it??? Our 160/30 empty in nearly half the time your 400/200 emptys in. But you "just not seeing the advantage to stretching out the injection event." :shrug:
200% and 400% can be made steerable.
Very rarely in one shot like posted above. My 200% were pretty good. But not perfect. My 400% is why I'm glad I bought Minotaur.
They are finicky. But I drive around town lots and have slapped small trailers on the rig.
Fwiw I have a tune that makes zero smoke. Even when lugged locked in OD. Probably would get beat by my stocker in a 120 tune
With a 100% nozzle. You can empty more in the same time. It's like comparing 100% to 200%. Everything the 100% can do. The 200% could essentially empty more fuel. Or empty the same faster. In the same window of time. In my opinion making it safer on the hotter tunes. With more rpm as less PW and soi adder to get the job done.
Yes, we have had 200% nozzles idle like stock no issues. Many times over.
I was even in a customers truck not long ago with 400% did 600 in the same tune and idled almost like a stock SD. Guy works at DPPI. Very fun ride.
This seem like the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" sales approach. I see a lot of technical jargon and some neat equipment, but nothing near the "proof" that was promised in the thread title.
I don't have a dog in this fight, that's just my observation from the outside looking in.
Its only a matter of time before the nutswingers come out.
Simple as can be. 2.6MS/PW 160cc from our 30% or 100%. Why pay more???
I got a flow chart with my injectors......isn't every builder doing that?
We do this per request. Every single injector we send out meets the exact spec for its size.
A lot of our sales are through our dealers so they have specs on file. Since they are the tuners and know the product we see no need. All other tuners are always welcome to call for our specs for their customers.
No offense Charles, but i'm not even going to respond to all your posts here. We all know you do everything better than anyone else can ever image. Good luck with your in devours.
I think a professional, comprehensive, and collaborative relationship between a tuner and a injector builder can meet 99% of 7.3 HUEI customer tuning needs for nozzle sizes up to and including 200%.
You are exactly right. When a builder can offer the tuner a good product the tuner can do quite well with it. We have been doing this for years with Jonathan and more recently with Jody.
Stop playing the finger pointing game with the customer and great things can happen.
Charles,
You are 100% spot on with everything you have said about what 200% nozzles can be.
However...
It's posts like yours that drives me nuts dealing with customers who blindly believe everything they read online and want to jump on the 200% bandwagon feet first.
Why can't you emphasize to the average Joe how many hours you have spent live tuning your own truck?
You brought Mike O into your post, why can't you emphasize how many hours he has live tuning his own truck?
200% nozzles will be a HUGE disappointment without live tuning.
Don't lead the average 7.3 owner to think his truck will be the miracle your truck is by just swapping in 200% nozzles and doing nothing else and going about his day.
Sorry Tim, not relevant to your post, I know.
Did DynoProven tell you to test at the parameters that you did?
:thumbsup:
Just some of the parameters we use every day.
I'll put in my 2 cents. 30% nozzles work for 95% of guys wanting new injectors.. In the end we really need to think. How many people buy injectors and go on a forum? Most guys are construction workers, retired people towing their rvs and just want alittle extra power, etc.
EXACTLY, we sell more of these than anything. Unfortunetly a product with a smaller margin. But we are still happy they are getting quality product none the less.
Tim, it appears that your 30% may be a bit larger than what I am used to seeing for a 30% nozzle. Can you repeat the first test you showed here with a stock nozzle and one of your 30% nozzles side by side?
Its very possible Matt. We pour more $$$, time and DEVELOPMENT into every set that comes through our shop. I can guarantee that without a doubt.
I'll see what we can do for you.
Wanted to test this theory for ourselves...
We just ordered up a set of 160/30 to install for a customer that wanted out of his old school stage 1s.
This will be our only experience with 30s and 7.3s. We use 30% a lot of the 6.0 crowd. Never had much issue with 80s or 100s though in the 7.3 world
Find out what your previous PW was calling for? Your current setup? and what your tuning uses for 160/100%..
Sorry for such a long post. And this is not proofed for spelling. Hope this helps
