Want to put a zf-6 in my excursion ...

Dieselboy.

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Exactly. No matter what. I push the button. Trans will up shift, down shift, lock or unlock converter. The only parameter it follows is calculating rpm and if you command a downshift say at 3500rpm it won't allow it as you would be over my commanded wot shift rpm. If that makes sense.

Fr anyone wondering. I monitor boost. Engine temp. And ran my single stage of nitrous off the pcs.
And that is only a small portion of what I believe it to be capable of. After doing my own tuning with Minotaur. The pcs layout makes Minotaur look like a joke on the transmission portion.
 

JD3020

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I've got a full ZF-6 set-up with a 750hp SBC DD for my build, but i've been talking with a guy about trading it for a BTS. The more i watch Dan's video's the more i want to throw down some coin on a PCS and enjoy having a manual truck, without wearing out my left leg on a dual disc clutch everday.
 

sniper_101

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I'm sure the design has gotten so much better since I ran a 250 hp gasser and had synchro issues at half the mileage you're at. Maybe the definition of work varies?

No need to get all eye roll and pissy. I can go talk to women if I want that, lol. I can't see how it's possible since I've been there, done that. Maybe because you have a 7k lb truck? Idk. My dually was way over 10 with the bed and boxes on it. It's stiiiiiill around though. It has 400+ on it and I see it pulling a trailer occasionally.

My post was clearly directed to Charles' post/statement I embolded, but feel free to take it personal if you desire the drama...
 

94forddiesel

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Well I like hearing everyone's thoughts on auto vs manual even though my question was on how to do it , not if. But I see that there are a lot of choices and opinions out there and the full manual auto is something I would consider. I think I would enjoy a lot in my 6.4 since that's mainly gonna be my tow rig. And my excursion will be the play truck, some drag racing some truck pulling some holeshots well prob a lot of hole shots. But keep the ideas coming guys! Thanks for all the info.
 

Charles

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Where are all the others doing this that haul heavy constantly with their manual trans trucks? :rolleyes:

---

OP - I didn't buy my truck to race, just tow and be reliable/simple. Aside from the syncros in mine starting to wear a bit now, at 250,000 miles, I'm still happy I made the choice of a ZF6. Besides, I still have fun bangin' gears in this old truck.


First off, when you don't make any power the ZF is a totally different story. I ran one with bs injectors for years and aside from the continual fights with the plastic hydros giving up and the inevitable creeping through lights with the clutch fully depressed, and general slow ass truck syndrome, it was a practical option.

The problem with a ZF comes with increased power. And no, it doesn't break except in extreme cases. That's not the mode of failure. The mode of failure is in one of two ways, that you as the owner gets to pick. You either pick a dual disc clutch that holds, or.... you pick a single disc clutch that shifts, albeit still hopelessly slower than a trans with multidisc hydraulically actuated shifts...

Problem with holding capacity:

The hydros suck... Period. So you can't run a lot of plate, you'll never get the pos into or out of gear, and the syncros will die even faster than usual, plus it will drive like even stinkier dog poo. So you have to run more than one disc to gain the torque capacity. Problem with multiple discs is weight. The heavier the rotating assembly splined to the input shaft is that you must accelerate and decelerate this mass every time you make a shift. The syncro must suck all that spinning crap down in rpm on ever upshift before that gearset can be engaged to the input shaft. Which is why a dual disc of the size in these trucks shifts like dog crap. Anybody that tells you otherwise is clueless, or lying. It's physics.

So... we take the sprung hub out of the discs to save weight. So now it only shifts like horse crap instead of dog crap. Problem is, now the truck sounds like a can of marbles at idle, and the bearings in the trans are getting beat to hell because of the pounding the driveline then takes from the shocks of each cylinder firing with no springs to dampen it. Screwed again...

Okay... so we make a lightweight single disc... and hey, it shifts okay. Still many times longer to complete a shift than a 4R, but livable. If you shifted it with moderation and reserve the syncros would last okay. Problem is... as soon as you roll into 550+hp whoops... you just hit the rev limiter.... It won't hold the power...


The above is the ability to hold power problem you face with the ZF. Which is why I suggested that at or below ~500 wheel, it's doable, above, you start having to pick.



Second problem, unrelated to the first, is continuous duty:

The trans is a 6 forward speed, one reverse. That means you have a minimum of what, 14 gears in constant mesh all the time? That's a lot of oil chewing and slinging. Under normal power loads, like what the unit was designed for, that's no problem. The losses are still pretty good for a unit that size and type. But when you start pushing beyond the designed capacity of the unit (600ft/lbs btw) the losses start climbing. Not coincidentally... when you exceed about 600ft/lbs continuously the thing starts to reach a temperature runaway. It's almost like the people that designed and manufactured the transmission know it's capacity! Because in my experience, almost exactly beyond this point it starts to overheat in continuous duty. That means at least an hour for all you backroad heros...

Reason hardly anyone sees this is that hardly anyone can make 600+ ft/lbs for over an hour with a 7.3 and not overheat the engine first. You need a decent nozzle, and decent charger, with a relatively good state of tune to have the engine in the 6 to 700+ ft/lb range at steady state, with no egt control issues. OBS trucks will overheat the water even if the tune, nozzle and charger are spot on. Superduty trucks will almost always overheat the EGT before this point is reached in 99% of the cases due to crap tuning, or tiny little nozzles.

Reason you will not find a ZF in any superduty produced in years? Because the engines now come factory rated at outputs that enter these ranges. In fact, the last 6 leakers already had ZF upping the rated capacity just to keep them in those trucks. Hence the ZF S650!

A ZF6 as offered in a 7.3 equipped superduty would melt in a single trip behind a bone stock 6.7 if the load and road required the 6.7 to make rated power for any extended period and the ZF6 was not fitted with additional cooling. Neverminding the wear due to continuous torque loads of 800ft/lbs on a 600ft/lb capable trans. And when I say 600ft/lbs capable, that's continuous duty. For short bursts I'm sure it would hold 2000+ ft/lbs if it were not applied as a shock load that blew that number way up.



As for a 4R in a company vehicle that tows heavy, the reason that's hard is because the monkey driving won't let off, and the 4R must make every shift under full power. So it's usually better, since those trucks make no power, to run a ZF, and just deal with the blown syncros and smoked clutches. I actually said that my 550 will not run a 4R for this reason. Other people driving it. You know they would never let off, and the 7.3 computer doesn't do well with defueling for shifts.


For some reason, I doubt an EX is going to be 30k lbs all the time. Hence my suggestion of a full manual 4R. If you've never driven one, you might be surprised at how well it scratches the full control itch without the bs. Especially as power rises beyond 500 wheel or so.

Sometimes they don't make sense. Most times they do.
 
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TyCorr

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My post was clearly directed to Charles' post/statement I embolded, but feel free to take it personal if you desire the drama...

No drama. Only if you take it that way. But to lighten your stance, you quoted me, my name ain't Charlie, lol....
 

ja_cain

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First off, when you don't make any power the ZF is a totally different story. I ran one with bs injectors for years and aside from the continual fights with the plastic hydros giving up and the inevitable creeping through lights with the clutch fully depressed, and general slow ass truck syndrome, it was a practical option.

The problem with a ZF comes with increased power. And no, it doesn't break except in extreme cases. That's not the mode of failure. The mode of failure is in one of two ways, that you as the owner gets to pick. You either pick a dual disc clutch that holds, or.... you pick a single disc clutch that shifts, albeit still hopelessly slower than a trans with multidisc hydraulically actuated shifts...

Problem with holding capacity:

The hydros suck... Period. So you can't run a lot of plate, you'll never get the pos into or out of gear, and the syncros will die even faster than usual, plus it will drive like even stinkier dog poo. So you have to run more than one disc to gain the torque capacity. Problem with multiple discs is weight. The heavier the rotating assembly splined to the input shaft is that you must accelerate and decelerate this mass every time you make a shift. The syncro must suck all that spinning crap down in rpm on ever upshift before that gearset can be engaged to the input shaft. Which is why a dual disc of the size in these trucks shifts like dog crap. Anybody that tells you otherwise is clueless, or lying. It's physics.

So... we take the sprung hub out of the discs to save weight. So now it only shifts like horse crap instead of dog crap. Problem is, now the truck sounds like a can of marbles at idle, and the bearings in the trans are getting beat to hell because of the pounding the driveline then takes from the shocks of each cylinder firing with no springs to dampen it. Screwed again...

Okay... so we make a lightweight single disc... and hey, it shifts okay. Still many times longer to complete a shift than a 4R, but livable. If you shifted it with moderation and reserve the syncros would last okay. Problem is... as soon as you roll into 550+hp whoops... you just hit the rev limiter.... It won't hold the power...


The above is the ability to hold power problem you face with the ZF. Which is why I suggested that at or below ~500 wheel, it's doable, above, you start having to pick.



Second problem, unrelated to the first, is continuous duty:

The trans is a 6 forward speed, one reverse. That means you have a minimum of what, 14 gears in constant mesh all the time? That's a lot of oil chewing and slinging. Under normal power loads, like what the unit was designed for, that's no problem. The losses are still pretty good for a unit that size and type. But when you start pushing beyond the designed capacity of the unit (600ft/lbs btw) the losses start climbing. Not coincidentally... when you exceed about 600ft/lbs continuously the thing starts to reach a temperature runaway. It's almost like the people that designed and manufactured the transmission know it's capacity! Because in my experience, almost exactly beyond this point it starts to overheat in continuous duty. That means at least an hour for all you backroad heros...

Reason hardly anyone sees this is that hardly anyone can make 600+ ft/lbs for over an hour with a 7.3 and not overheat the engine first. You need a decent nozzle, and decent charger, with a relatively good state of tune to have the engine in the 6 to 700+ ft/lb range at steady state, with no egt control issues. OBS trucks will overheat the water even if the tune, nozzle and charger are spot on. Superduty trucks will almost always overheat the EGT before this point is reached in 99% of the cases due to crap tuning, or tiny little nozzles.

Reason you will not find a ZF in any superduty produced in years? Because the engines now come factory rated at outputs that enter these ranges. In fact, the last 6 leakers already had ZF upping the rated capacity just to keep them in those trucks. Hence the ZF S650!

A ZF6 as offered in a 7.3 equipped superduty would melt in a single trip behind a bone stock 6.7 if the load and road required the 6.7 to make rated power for any extended period and the ZF6 was not fitted with additional cooling. Neverminding the wear due to continuous torque loads of 800ft/lbs on a 600ft/lb capable trans. And when I say 600ft/lbs capable, that's continuous duty. For short bursts I'm sure it would hold 2000+ ft/lbs if it were not applied as a shock load that blew that number way up.



As for a 4R in a company vehicle that tows heavy, the reason that's hard is because the monkey driving won't let off, and the 4R must make every shift under full power. So it's usually better, since those trucks make no power, to run a ZF, and just deal with the blown syncros and smoked clutches. I actually said that my 550 will not run a 4R for this reason. Other people driving it. You know they would never let off, and the 7.3 computer doesn't do well with defueling for shifts.


For some reason, I doubt an EX is going to be 30k lbs all the time. Hence my suggestion of a full manual 4R. If you've never driven one, you might be surprised at how well it scratches the full control itch without the bs. Especially as power rises beyond 500 wheel or so.

Sometimes they don't make sense. Most times they do.

This is a great post. Would an oversized tranny cooler be effective at offloading some of that heat? I wonder if there are some other tricks that can be done to lower the temps. I sometimes wonder whether the type of fluid/lubricant that is called for in these transmissions is somehow facilitating/exacerbating these issues. Did you ever experiment with different fluids in the ZF6? Would love to know your thoughts on this. Thanks!
 

Charles

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This is a great post. Would an oversized tranny cooler be effective at offloading some of that heat? I wonder if there are some other tricks that can be done to lower the temps. I sometimes wonder whether the type of fluid/lubricant that is called for in these transmissions is somehow facilitating/exacerbating these issues. Did you ever experiment with different fluids in the ZF6? Would love to know your thoughts on this. Thanks!

Mercon stuff, black...

Amsoil stuff, black...

Valvoline, dark brown...

lol.


Haven't checked since adding another cooler on the valvoline. I'm actually trying to work a deal where I don't have to pull hay anymore. Short-tripping the truck with equipment deliveries it never gets hot. It's only long interstate pulls that kill stuff in my experience.

Fwiw, my 4R at at least 100 additional horsepower (applied) never got hot. The truck ran a steady state boost of ~40 to 50, peak of ~70 and consumed over 15 gallons of water through the water injection system though. Rear diff didn't fare so well, but 4R gave not a single damn. That was pretty much when I gave up on the ZF.


To the OP, cut out your floor, swap out your bellhousing dowel pins (they're too long, will hit on pass side strength rib of the trans), grab a flywheel and clutch (get ready for sticker shock if you want to hold power and go name brand), swap to a manual trans harness, grab clutch pedal, clutch safety switch, P/N plug (little plastic dongle), pos plastic hydro assembly, gear stick and bellows, might need to swap brake pedal too for clearance, grab a manual PCM, get a manual T-case or swap input shafts.

That's all I can think of.

Tip:

Notice the hole in the back web of the block in the valley. This dumps out just inside the bellhousing and will kill your new clutch the first time you have any leak in the valley, which for a 7.3 is pretty much inevitable. I stick a 90* fitting in this hole, trim the little sheetmetal spacer plate to clear it and if you look at the bottom of the block near the panrail on the starter side you will see another little hole leaving this area. Route the hose there. Then when you pop an o-ring, vibralock on the fuel bowl or anything else you won't kill your clutch. It will just pour out next to the starter.

Good luck.
 
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ja_cain

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Charles,

Do you think the ZF could benefit from a 6.0 cooler or similar like the 4r? Maybe that is one of the reasons they were able to uprate the later ZF6-750's. Have you ever had a UOA done on your trans fluid. Thanks in advance for any info you may provide.

Justin
 

psduser1

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I've seen the zip problems Charles is describing, and at lower power levels, 300-350hp, ie chip, exhaust, and intake levels. I was changing Trans oil once a yr, still dark brown to black. Last summer I swapped to a reman Midwest unit, added a 31 row 4r cooler, and added 1 1/2 extra quarts thru the top of the trans with Schaeffer premium trans fluid. Roughly the same time, I went to a 160/100 injector, which bumped the hp a bit. It's almost time to at least check the fluid, so we'll see if the cooler helps.
As explained to me, tolerances are consider ably tighter in the zf compared to the older style boxes, causing more heat transfer. This is also why atf is recommended, not 90w140, as some people like to think.
For sure, when this case pukes, I'll have a 4r and a pcs to replace it.:D
 

ja_cain

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I've seen the zip problems Charles is describing, and at lower power levels, 300-350hp, ie chip, exhaust, and intake levels. I was changing Trans oil once a yr, still dark brown to black. Last summer I swapped to a reman Midwest unit, added a 31 row 4r cooler, and added 1 1/2 extra quarts thru the top of the trans with Schaeffer premium trans fluid. Roughly the same time, I went to a 160/100 injector, which bumped the hp a bit. It's almost time to at least check the fluid, so we'll see if the cooler helps.
As explained to me, tolerances are consider ably tighter in the zf compared to the older style boxes, causing more heat transfer. This is also why atf is recommended, not 90w140, as some people like to think.
For sure, when this case pukes, I'll have a 4r and a pcs to replace it.:D

You should look into getting a uoa done when you change it. There are some fluids that have just a slight increase in viscosity relative to mercon. Not as extreme as going to a 90w-140. Plus they have better anti-wear additives than atf. Redline MTL is an example. I'm thinking about doing a blend of Redline D4 and MTL to get a mild bump in viscosity. Could be helpful in hotter climates in the summer plus it might quiet some of the rollover noise. Definitely going to look into the larger cooler too. Thanks for your input.

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psduser1

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:poke:I don't know your background, ja, so I'm not trying to argue with you about oils, lol.
It is my understanding that atf, as a type, has higher viscosity than gear oil. That being said, viscosity isn't the issue.
Frictional loss thru the multiple gearsets-think heat-is a much larger problem than the type of oil used to cool and lubricate.
While I use and appreciate oil analysis, I don't need to waste time and money on them to know what condition my trans oil is in when it's black and burnt after 20-30 miles of use.
All that aside, the other, multiple, problems listed in Charles post above.
 

ja_cain

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I'm a jack-ass of all trades. Which means that I know enough about a lot of things to be dangerous but get things wrong a lot. :)

Motocraft Mercon and Redline D4 both have a cSt of 7.5 @ 100 C
Redline MTL has cSt of ~9.8 @ 100 C (would blend this with D4 to get slight bump in viscosity if running at sustained high temps
Redline 75W140 NS GL-5 Gear Oil has cSt of 26.9 @ 100 C

An auto works like a pump so you don't want your viscosity to be high or the flow would be low and the pressures would be high. I think that the ZF6 might fall between a traditional MT and an auto hence the compromise/simplicity of using the ATF. Plus, you will get better fuel economy (read comment about parasitic loss below) and easier shifting at lower operating temps. Atf's don't normally have the additives that MTL or gear lubes have. I don't think they are as shear stable also but that is just a guess without an UOA to look at. There are some interesting star polymers that are much more shear stable (Lubrizol) and I think a lubricant with these type of polymers would be interesting to try in a ZF6 due the amount of shearing action taking place with all of the gear sets spinning all the time. Charles comment about parasitic losses are interesting which would mean you would want be careful with bumping the viscosity too much. But since viscosity is a lot of times a function of temperature you should be ok if your average operating temp is higher than normal. Sorry about the disjointed post. BTW, my brother is a Phd Engineer for Afton/New Market and they develope additives for fuels and lubricants for the industry. I have been chomping at the bit to talk to someone in the transmission/drivetrain area and ask them about these issues. If I ever do I will relay any of that to this community.
 
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sniper_101

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Charles, the only reason I mention you how I did is; yes you fry ZF-6's, I get it. Yes, they are not the greatest in almost any way, shape or form, I never said they were.

You are working them harder than 99% of most people will from what I have read in previous posts (I only skimmed through your response because I'm guessing I've read most of it before in your past rants, and I agree).

The OP didn't say he wanted a heavy hauler. He didn't say he wanted a race truck. He didn't say he was sled pulling every weekend. If he's going to use it, like 95% of people with ZF-6's, he'll likely never have an issue with the problems you explained (other than the joke of a hyd clutch setup).

Consider this, next time a post like this pops up, instead of instantly calling it junk, consider not everyone will use it like you. Plenty owners haven't, and never will experience the same issues you have who are still perfectly happy with their trans choice.

I in no way doubt, or discredit your info and experience, but again... not everyone uses their truck the same way. That is all.
 

Charles

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I just thought to myself and realized.... the reason I have fallen completely out of love with the ZF trans in these ford trucks is the fact that I have been dealing with the exact same bs problems from them for 19 years now! I know.... I didn't realize it had been that long either. Our 95 had the exact same poor shifting, creeping through lights with the clutch pedal buried a half inch into the floor bs. It had the added benefit of vibrating like crazy as well because of the dumb ass flywheel on the OBS trucks. So I guess in all these years the best they could come up with was a lower first gear, higher OD and single mass flywheel? Pos hydros live on, lol. Plastic bushings, bearings, spacers and such live on, lol.

I think things make me the most disappointed when they are so close, but yet nobody can give enough of a damn to see it through, nor to fix it, year after year after year.

A decent clutch release system would cure the problems for the average guy because he could keep half the wear off his syncros right there when they didn't have to constantly fight the engine as well as the clutch to engage/disengage each gear all the time. Plus it would drive 100% better. Plus you could actually run some PLATE! Then a single disc would hold gobs of torque and still be lightweight!

Then the only problem would be the inherent issue of disengaging all forward drive on each shift and each shift still taking a century compared to a trans where each ratio is added with a hydraulic clutch like a 4R, and the inherent oil destruction with all forward and reverse gears in constant mesh all the time while driving for hours in OD, pulling. Which is only a problem for people that like to approach the level of towing power a bone stock 2014 superduty comes with from the factory. Which is the main reason the ZF series of transmissions went the way of the dodo.


A PCS controller costs less than 900 bucks. And will do a hell of a lot more than run a trans. The trans will be far more capable than a ZF, drive insanely better and be much faster. Everyone can drive a truck like that with a simple switch to engage full auto mode.

And the real kicker, is that if the person who desperately dreams of the ZF6 were able to drive the same truck each way, they would pick the full manual 4R, they just don't know any better because they've almost certainly never driven one in full manual mode with a physical bump shifter in the cab for up and downshifts. What about a deadman lever on the bump shifter for converter unlock? Need to get on top of the charger for a second? Just squeeze the deadman, converter unlocks, light it off, then release and crush back into the seat.

Need to run your water injection? Need to control multiple stages of wastegates on multiple chargers? Need to display warnings or lights, or buzzers at shift points, temp limits or anything else? Want full datalogging? All that and so much more is built in. For a cost that's less than what he'll probably have to give for a junkyard ZF6 with questionable life. Not counting anything else needed.

But.... like I said.... some have to learn the hard way. I was one of them....

But maybe some people might read what I've said and at least give it an honest thought.
 
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ja_cain

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Charles,

I can see why you are so frustrated with the zf6. Looks like there is a fair amount of low hanging fruit for an aftermarket company to take advantage of. I was told that there was an updated/aftermarket metal slave cylinder available. Not sure on the master cylinder though. That pcs sounds pretty sweet. Will have to look into that when the time comes to move to a ccsb/cclb. As the kids get bigger will most likely pic one of these up with the 4r. My brother is going to hook me up with some knowledgeable guys in the drive train department so I can pick their brains on what might be the best lubricant to use in Fords zf6 configuration. Also, if someone was to come up with a viable solution to the garbage hydros does anyone offer a a clutch with more plate? Thanks again for posting your experience and insight.

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