160/100 vs 205/30 Injector Testing

Zeb · Mar 21, 2019

PSD POWER007 said:
I’m on the fence, my FF 180/80’s have been AWESOME with my BASB. I’ve considered going a little bigger now that they have almost 250k miles on them. I tow often at around 10k lbs. Am I just splitting hairs by considering like a 205/30 or maybe a 238/30? I’d like to keep a stock pump just because I’m on the road so much.

If you’re happy with the 80% nozzles I’d say keep them when/if you jump to a 238 hybrid. A stock pump will be ok with 238/80’s.
Haze at idle is most often a nozzle quality issue, but tuning can play a part also.

superpsd · Mar 22, 2019

Most of the nozzles used are Redat Nozzles. That's what are on my injectors. Some builders may have their own local supplier but no builder advertises what brand of parts are going into their injectors. Quality of the injector and tuning likely play a huge role in idle haze. Also 30% 80% 200% and 400% nozzles are EDM nozzles 100% and 300% are EH. There has been theory that a EDM will have better atomization. Again just more theory. I prefer a higher VOP. Higher Pop presure is going to create better atomization.

cjfarm111 · Mar 22, 2019

Testing say a 180/80 a-code vs. 205/80 hybrid vs. 205/30 would also be interesting. I’m starting to think the larger a-codes are suffering from lack of oil and loss there efficiency. So for a majority of people a hybrid is probably the best option

Zeb · Mar 22, 2019

superpsd said:
Most of the nozzles used are Redat Nozzles. That's what are on my injectors. Some builders may have their own local supplier but no builder advertises what brand of parts are going into their injectors. Quality of the injector and tuning likely play a huge role in idle haze. Also 30% 80% 200% and 400% nozzles are EDM nozzles 100% and 300% are EH. There has been theory that a EDM will have better atomization. Again just more theory. I prefer a higher VOP. Higher Pop presure is going to create better atomization.

It is true that most builder use Redat nozzles, but there are things that can be done to the nozzle after it leaves Redat’s hands that reduce idle haze and cold smoke.
Nozzle that have been extrude honed enough to increase flow rate DEFINITELY are “dirtier “. I’ve been there, done that, with nothing changed but the nozzle.
Higher VOP does increase atomization, at the cost of reduced fuel flow, and some tweaks that need to be done to the tuning. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but if people go down that road they need to realize the trade offs.
For the vast majority of people, a smaller, properly prepped nozzle, with a 2750 spring, will be the easiest to tune, and give the best results.

ford_trck · Mar 22, 2019

The real thing here is to be real with what you do with the truck. When I did mine I was still in Illinois and spent a lot of time driving, and heavy haul. Being a 6 speed I wanted something with low end but I wanted smoke to be easily cleared and temps to be easily managed. I went with 180/30's from River City Diesel when Josh still built them. I have not had a single issue with them ever! This goes to buying a quality injector!
Good idle, Quick spool, quick cleanup etc. I have had this setup for almost 10 years and would not change it, if my driving style hadn't changed...
Now, being that I have had the setup for so long I want more power. I'm not driving the same as I use to and I'm not hauling like I use to. The truck is more of a toy now and a weekend driver. While I still want reliability I drive with my foot on the floor a lot more now. This time around I'm looking at a 238 or 250 with a 100 or possibly a 200 nozzle.
Anyways, this is a great thread and happy to see the Arizona boys playing around!

firehunter · Mar 22, 2019

I guess I will chime in with my experience as I am a sample size of "one" who was not happy with 160/30's and much happier with my current 160/80's.

I got the 30's some years ago when they were relatively new to the scene, immediately after install they smoked white/blue on cold idle when oil temps were below 60*F. I started a thread on here back in February of 2013 about the smoke with plenty of responses but no real solutions. I only ran those injectors for ~10K miles (a guess, don't remember) and at the advise of the tuner switched to the more experienced and proven 80% nozzle. Unfortunately these 160/80's still smoke under the same cold conditions but not nearly as much as the 30's.

As to "hot and smokey" I have had zero issue with the 80's being either of those. The only time I can get these injectors over 1200* EGT is if I intentionally mash the throttle at relatively low RPMs (manual transmission). If I maintain reasonable RPMs matched to the load I am pulling then I rarely see over 1000* - ever. Smoke could be an issue when towing if I stepped on the throttle hard but was easy to manage by smoothly rolling into the throttle. As to "oil hungry" I have never had an issue with this and my adrenaline pump - I will let off the throttle before the injectors start to lose pressure. These injectors just keep pulling and pulling on the top end!

Fast forward to just a few months ago and the addition of the KCTurbos SXE drop-in turbine wheel and smoke while towing is no longer an issue - ever. EGT's are never an issue. Unfortunately the injectors still smoke blue/white/fuel until oil temps get to 60* then smoke shuts off like a switch. Per a compression test the engine is healthy with no blow-by and very little oil consumption between changes (never have to add). I have ~90K miles on these 160/80's.

FWIW

superpsd · Mar 22, 2019

Zeb said:
It is true that most builder use Redat nozzles, but there are things that can be done to the nozzle after it leaves Redat’s hands that reduce idle haze and cold smoke.
Nozzle that have been extrude honed enough to increase flow rate DEFINITELY are “dirtier “. I’ve been there, done that, with nothing changed but the nozzle.
Higher VOP does increase atomization, at the cost of reduced fuel flow, and some tweaks that need to be done to the tuning. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but if people go down that road they need to realize the trade offs.
For the vast majority of people, a smaller, properly prepped nozzle, with a 2750 spring, will be the easiest to tune, and give the best results.

The trade offs are small and can be compensated for in the calibration. The actual PW versus commanded is going to be shorter thus small PW adjustments can be made. The injector will be delayed with no timing adjustment but with some changes to timing this can be comensated for as well. EH may flow better for all out flow delivery but most these days are more concerned with a clean burn that keeps EGTs under control. Of course EGTs can be controlled with tuning as well. I can idle my 200% nozzles down to 400 rpm on a cold engine with very little haze.

cjfarm111 · Apr 1, 2019

Any more test updates?

KCTurbos · Apr 1, 2019

Wont be swapping injectors for a few months... we are gonna test a lot of different s300 turbos first before we swap the injectors.

Should be getting an s369sxe installed this week.

Back woods · Apr 1, 2019

Would the 205/30 be an option on a PMR motor with an S366? Not looking for a race truck, just tow pig 400-425hp.

Zeb · Apr 1, 2019

Back woods said:
Would the 205/30 be an option on a PMR motor with an S366? Not looking for a race truck, just tow pig 400-425hp.

205/30’s and either a S364.5 if you have a T-4 setup , or a KC 63/73/.84 if you want a drop in, would be an awesome tow setup on a PMR motor.

jbolen323 · Apr 1, 2019

Back woods said:
Would the 205/30 be an option on a PMR motor with an S366? Not looking for a race truck, just tow pig 400-425hp.

I wouldn't worry with that at all honestly, I have tons of friends and customers running 238cc/80% injectors on PMR trucks. Anything above 250cc/100% is when I think I draw the line on telling people it becomes risky. *I have seen 250cc/100% pop a HG on a drop in turbo finally and it was very low mile well taken care of*

ironically my pmr motor lasted and still is running versus my forged when blew. its all tuning honestly and luck. I cant stress enough to try EVERYONES tunes. Each tuner has its ups and downs.

I think im throwing on the s369sxe tonight, so keep a eye out on updates.

cjfarm111 · Apr 1, 2019

With your 205/30’s?

lincolnlocker · Apr 2, 2019

psduser1 said:
You are completely not wrong, lol.

The Brad is also not wrong.

The big issue is application, and customer willingness to make a given combination work, i.e. live tuning, multiple revisions, support mods, etc.

It is not as simple as "drop in x size injector' and all your problems are solved.

Theoretically, everyone should drop in 400% nozzles, and make 450 hp on a stock turbo.

That is part of the disconnect between tuners, customers, and manufacturers.

Tuners like smaller nozzles because it's easier to please 80% of the customers-bread and butter customers, if you will. Manufacturers operate on margins, so the best sellers are what they push.

The next 15% want to have better performance, and are willing to pay for the supporting stuff. Better pumps, better turbos, maybe quality rebuilds, so forth.

Then there is the 5% who want to push the envelope.

All these guys can post whatever bs they feel like on the web.

The further away from stock you move, the more attention to detail required to gain the desired result.

Spot on man!

Its no secret that hybrids outperform. That has been proven many years ago. Many times over.

Most any injector will work with just about any combination as long as live tuning is willing to be considered.

live life full throttle

KCTurbos · Apr 3, 2019

S369 is on... results coming soon.

Anyone curious what size the BASB turbos is????
64.5/68/1.10 (could be a 1.0 housing... its hard to tell)

Basically an s300 with 64.5sxe compressor wheel but old style s300 cover. Smaller 76x68 s300 turbine wheel.

Zeb · Apr 3, 2019

KCTurbos said:
S369 is on... results coming soon.

Anyone curious what size the BASB turbos is????
64.5/68/1.10 (could be a 1.0 housing... its hard to tell)

Basically an s300 with 64.5sxe compressor wheel but old style s300 cover. Smaller 76x68 s300 turbine wheel.

Sweet!

What turbine housing on the S369, .91?

jbolen323 · Apr 3, 2019

Zeb said:
Sweet!

What turbine housing on the S369, .91?

yeah running the .9 AR housing so far, maybe might see what it does with changing up to the larger housings.

So far on the quick driving around in the HOT tunes on a truck with 35's and geared to 4.30s it feels very similar to the other turbo. Drivability is very acceptable and has a lot more "pull" in the mid range and pushing through the top end. I can see why a lot of people jump into, and the truck is already going out for a local tow in town with another backhoe and gooseneck run. Im sure well get results and videos up and going shortly as well. I have some basic videos of smoke output of WOT pulls and then a 65mph pull and its impressive. Also the biggest thing was that it is not setting on the alert on my cts2 that I have at 1350 all the way up to 4th gear, when the other turbo would.

I think its a good setup for the weekend diesel enthusiast that has more of a daily / play truck with mild setup. If its going to be a designated towing rig I think stepping down in the into the s364/ s366 will be the ticket for the average joe. Someone that has experience and knows how to drive the truck could get away with the s369 to do everything and use the larger turbo. The big test will be seeing how it works and holds temps here in Arizona during our summer on our mountain grades.

One issue we did run into is that the old s300 wheels came with 3" outlets and this was a 2.5" outlet on the SXE, luckily found a shop with a reducer.

Zeb · Apr 3, 2019

jbolen323 said:
yeah running the .9 AR housing so far, maybe might see what it does with changing up.

So far on the quick driving around in the HOT tunes on a truck with 35's and geared to 4.30s it feels very similar to the other turbo. Drivability is very acceptable and has a lot more "pull" in the mid range and pushing through the top end. I can see why a lot of people jump into, and the truck is already going out for a local tow in town with another backhoe and gooseneck run. Im sure well get results and videos up and going shortly as well. I have some basic videos of smoke output of WOT pulls and then a 65mph pull and its impressive. Also the biggest thing was that it is not setting on the alert on my cts2 that I have at 1350 all the way up to 4th gear, when the other turbo would.

One issue we did run into is that the old s300 wheels came with 3" outlets and this was a 2.5" outlet on the SXE, luckily found a shop with a reducer.

Very nice.
What kind of boost numbers are you seeing?

TMCCOY · Apr 3, 2019

FWIW, I just changed the AR from 1.0 to .91 on my 366SXE and it is much better. I think for most "normal" range trucks, the .91 is the way to go.

KCTurbos · Apr 3, 2019

TMCCOY said:
FWIW, I just changed the AR from 1.0 to .91 on my 366SXE and it is much better. I think for most "normal" range trucks, the .91 is the way to go.

It is funny you say that... I was on facebook and mentioned that we would be running a .91ar and everyone jumped saying only an idiot would run a .91 and that 1.0 is the way to go.