160/100 vs 205/30 Injector Testing

[lincolnlocker]

I wish there was a like button because this is my thoughts exaclly!



I get a kick out of the " bigger nozzles should really wake that turbo up"! . When currently it's got enough fuel down low to fog out a compleat town. Lmao!!

That is where live tuning comes into play.

live life full throttle

 

[Strokersace]

Just push that little button on the end of the shift lever. She will cool down... or tow at 80mph... and dont pussy foot it.. that ole girl loves being drove hard.


And that is in the hot tune..... keep rpm up. She loves it..

I have set the cruise at 90 with my old 5er on the back of her. Hot tune. 1100°... giver!

live life full throttle

Oh I found that night 1st hand last weekend! And that’s exactly what I did! Lol. It ran cooler in underdrive at 60 and 80 in overdrive than it did at 70-75 in OD.

My problem is only 5 to 10% of my towing is on interstates or roads I can do 80+. The rest is on 2 lane 65-70 mph roads. I’m looking for that sweet spot on those kind of roads vs higher speeds and throwing wood to it!

For me the truck is a 500hp capable tow machine that occasionally daily drives. Not the other way around like most.

 

[KCTurbos]

I’d disagree based on my personal experience years ago. Now mind you this was a mostly stock truck. Had an exhaust, intake, gauges and reputable tuner but had stock fuel, stock oil, 4.10 gears, 31.5” tall stock tires, and Auto trans.

At the time I lived in central Montana and nearly always had a loaded trailer behind me. Minimum weight being pulled was 7k but usually up to 15k. The STOCK turbo with .84 housing “choked” the truck out when you got north of 2200 rpm. I would normally run down the highway at 2500 to 2800. It was all I could do to get it up to where I needed to and typically when I did it surged horribly! My only change was installing a van turbo (1.15 exhaust housing). The way I drove it at slower speeds in the lower rpm range, I noticed NO change to spool up and no lag. What I did notice was “my” upper rpm range was drastically different. Truck didn’t level or or choke out anymore. I could get to, be in, and maintain with lower egt’s without surge. I could get to and drive comfortably in that 2500 to 2800 rpm range where I couldn’t before.

Again, my only personal experience with changing exhaust housings on essentially the same turbo. But for my truck, my style of driving, and my location at the time, the larger housing was a benefit in every way. I know that other people did not have the same experience that I had.

With my newly acquired 7.3 that is basically setup exactly how the truck I described above was suspension wise, I have no plans to run bigger tires or do a gear swap to 3.73. I will be pulling similar weights and the same speeds I was before. My elevation now will be a few thousand feet closer to sea level than before though! If I decide to swap out the 38r that’s on it now, I’d like to go to a 364.5/73. The exhaust housing is what I haven’t decided on. Most testing and most people in general are running different gears and larger tires than I will. And I know first hand that the exact same engine trans setup performs differently when gears and tires are different.

Take the 6.4s I had for example: my 08 with stock tires and 4.10 and my dad’s 10 with 3.55 and 35’s. I built both engines and they were identical. Mine ran 20 mph slower at the same rpm as compared to my Dad’s. His was sluggish at lower rpm where mine was responsive. Mine was a towing machine at 65 to 70 mph, his was a dog at that speed due to lower rpm. His had much longer legs on the top end than mine did and running empty his got better fuel economy and was much nicer to drive at interstate speeds.

I know it’s all relative and if I decide to swap turbos, changing the exhaust housing isn’t terrible hard with the t4. Just hard to figure how something may work for me when many of the 1st hand experiences don’t run a setup like I do. My big tire days are over! Lol

There is more than one difference between the stock SD .84ar and the Van 1.15. The turbine wheels are also different. You very well could have fixed a bad turbo, boost leak, exhaust leak, etc... You gate could have been loose and blowing open early which was fixed at the same time. Maybe you even used a different compressor wheel which helped with surging.

But I can tell you from doing the tests back to back.

Smaller a/r housing will spool faster, and will choke out earlier causing higher ebp/egts on the top end

Bigger a/r housings will spool slower, and add flow on the top end.


It is a trade off, that is literally how exhaust housings work.

 

[Strokersace]

There is more than one difference between the stock SD .84ar and the Van 1.15. The turbine wheels are also different. You very well could have fixed a bad turbo, boost leak, exhaust leak, etc... You gate could have been loose and blowing open early which was fixed at the same time. Maybe you even used a different compressor wheel which helped with surging.



But I can tell you from doing the tests back to back.



Smaller a/r housing will spool faster, and will choke out earlier causing higher ebp/egts on the top end



Bigger a/r housings will spool slower, and add flow on the top end.





It is a trade off, that is literally how exhaust housings work.

You bet. Thanks for the response.

I very well could have inadvertently fixed something or changed wheels, but I did not. I verified all of those things you mentioned before I ever swapped the stock van turbo in.

Either way, my back to back testing/experience was 10 years+ ago. Had many setups after that. Been in the 7.3 game way longer than I’ve been away. It’s just that there have been some pretty major advancements in the last few years since I’ve been away.

 

[lincolnlocker]

You bet. Thanks for the response.

I very well could have inadvertently fixed something or changed wheels, but I did not. I verified all of those things you mentioned before I ever swapped the stock van turbo in.

Either way, my back to back testing/experience was 10 years+ ago. Had many setups after that. Been in the 7.3 game way longer than I’ve been away. It’s just that there have been some pretty major advancements in the last few years since I’ve been away.

Just the van turbine wheel makes a bit of difference.. use a van turbine wheel with that 38r and hold the *** on. Lol.. i was going to do that before going to a different turbo when going bigger injectors for pulling.

live life full throttle

 

[lincolnlocker]

Oh I found that night 1st hand last weekend! And that’s exactly what I did! Lol. It ran cooler in underdrive at 60 and 80 in overdrive than it did at 70-75 in OD.

My problem is only 5 to 10% of my towing is on interstates or roads I can do 80+. The rest is on 2 lane 65-70 mph roads. I’m looking for that sweet spot on those kind of roads vs higher speeds and throwing wood to it!

For me the truck is a 500hp capable tow machine that occasionally daily drives. Not the other way around like most.

How hot was it getting?

live life full throttle

 

[superpsd]

It is not just mass fuel to get a lazy turbo to spool. Timing SOI is critical. My 369 will not even spool with the 1.0 housing if advance timing far enough. Pull some timing in the right spot and it puts some heat into the exhaust to spin that sucker right up.

 

[KCTurbos]

It is not just mass fuel to get a lazy turbo to spool. Timing SOI is critical. My 369 will not even spool with the 1.0 housing if advance timing far enough. Pull some timing in the right spot and it puts some heat into the exhaust to spin that sucker right up.

Agreed. Live tuning and adjusting timing is crucial.

But I have yet to see where a bigger nozzles spool turbos faster. You can apply live tuning and timing to smaller nozzles also.

We have been spending plenty of timing tuning with the best tuners out there.


We shall see though... we will see 205/30 vs 238/80 graphs soon

 

[PSD POWER007]

Can’t wait to see the changes the 238/80’s have on the 364.5.

 

[jbolen323]

its working good, been on quite a handful of tows already. The turbo is definitely on the smaller side of the injectors it feels like.

The 238/80s are just a very gradual pull and creeps on up the hills with no issues as of yet, It would be better directed for a more experienced driver or diesel enthusiast. Just took a quick drive to Vegas to go rescue a 6door f250 that needed to come back to Phx. The largest mountain range is Bagdad hill on that route and pulled it zero issue and right as it got to the top of the hill was barely touching 1300 degrees in a 107 degrees out. Its quite a decent mountain to pull with a decent grade as well. Tuning will be a very big deciding factor and how you drive the truck (Upper rpms)


Egts are definitely something you will need to watch out for, they CAN get out of hand and would strongly and require full gauges / edge cts 2 setup. With the 205cc/30% you could just drive the truck and never worry about anything for the most part, EGTS would stay in check no matter what you did. You can also dump out a good amount of "coal" as well if you aren't paying attention which can be easily addressed but it should be noted and depending on the tuner. I think the s366 and s369 are really going to shine with the extra fuel as well. We will be working to get a dyno in very shortly for comparison. Mileage is still doing the same of 14mpg with .430 and 35's.

 

[PSD POWER007]

its working good, been on quite a handful of tows already. The turbo is definitely on the smaller side of the injectors it feels like.

The 238/80s are just a very gradual pull and creeps on up the hills with no issues as of yet, It would be better directed for a more experienced driver or diesel enthusiast. Just took a quick drive to Vegas to go rescue a 6door f250 that needed to come back to Phx. The largest mountain range is Bagdad hill on that route and pulled it zero issue and right as it got to the top of the hill was barely touching 1300 degrees in a 107 degrees out. Its quite a decent mountain to pull with a decent grade as well. Tuning will be a very big deciding factor and how you drive the truck (Upper rpms)


Egts are definitely something you will need to watch out for, they CAN get out of hand and would strongly and require full gauges / edge cts 2 setup. With the 205cc/30% you could just drive the truck and never worry about anything for the most part, EGTS would stay in check no matter what you did. You can also dump out a good amount of "coal" as well if you aren't paying attention which can be easily addressed but it should be noted and depending on the tuner. I think the s366 and s369 are really going to shine with the extra fuel as well. We will be working to get a dyno in very shortly for comparison. Mileage is still doing the same of 14mpg with .430 and 35's.

So that’s the 238/80’s with the 364.5?

 

[KCTurbos]

So that’s the 238/80’s with the 364.5?

Yes, he is running 238/80 and s364.5 as of now.

 

[PSD POWER007]

Yes, he is running 238/80 and s364.5 as of now.

I know he said he felt like the 238’s might be a little too much injector for the 364.5, I wonder if the 1.10 exhaust housing on my BASB would be a little better match for the extra fuel and combat the EGTs better...

 

[bigfords]

Are you able to hold similar speeds/gears as compared with the 205/30s?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[KCTurbos]

I know he said he felt like the 238’s might be a little too much injector for the 364.5, I wonder if the 1.10 exhaust housing on my BASB would be a little better match for the extra fuel and combat the EGTs better...

No way... we tested the basb vs the s364.5 and the s364.5 did better in every way. I would not expect anything better out of the basb no matter what housing it had.


With that said egts are very manageable with the 238/80s and s364.5. It just runs hotter than the 205/30s. Both still tow well IMO. The 238/80s have way more power and can push past the 1300egts if you are not careful.

With the 205/30 it was hard to even get to a point where you would struggle with egts... I honestly think the tow tunes needed to be turned up just a little bit but we never got around to that. You could hold the pedal all the way to the floor in the tow tune and go up any hill and never have to worry about egts... but sometimes would not have the power you wanted.

With the 238/80s you have to be careful with the pedal because there is more power than you can use, and will spike egts and smoke if you get on it too hard. But on the same level of tow tune they have way more power than the 205/30s.

Hope that makes sense.



Here is a dyno graph comparing the BASB vs 364.5/73/.91 . Both with 205/30. You can see the s364.5 comes on sooner, makes more peak tq, makes a TON more hp, and has more power under the curve in every area. I can also tell you that towing/daily driving results were the same as the dyno. Towed cooler, cooler at WOT, more power, less smoke etc...

I think the BASB was good back in its day before the new SXE turbos came out... but it is now outdated.

 

[PSD POWER007]

That’s amazing to hear Charlie. I can’t imagine my truck being able to tow any better than it does. But damn, that graph don’t lie. Dang you for making me REALLY want a sxe now!
Heck, I’m so tired of fighting VGT on my 05 Excursion, I might have to go the sxe route there too.

 

[KCTurbos]

That’s amazing to hear Charlie. I can’t imagine my truck being able to tow any better than it does. But damn, that graph don’t lie. Dang you for making me REALLY want a sxe now!
Heck, I’m so tired of fighting VGT on my 05 Excursion, I might have to go the sxe route there too.

Non-vgt on a 6.0 is a completely different story.

s364.5 on a 7.3 spools great and is a 450-500hp turbo that tows great
s364.5 on a 6.0 is a dog and is a 550-600hp turbo that you have to work to keep up your rpms to tow

No replacement for displacement when it comes to spooling turbos

I much prefer the s362sxe/68/.83 for a 6.0 that tows a lot.

 

[Back woods]

Great thread!

Have an EGT related question. I am running a T4 S366/.91 11+0 compressor on a 2001, stock injectors. Running an older SCT flash tuner on their "85hp" setting. The tune runs nice, spools good, makes 32psi @ WOT and very drive-able. A couple of posts ahead about the 205/30 64.5 stated this.

With the 205/30 it was hard to even get to a point where you would struggle with egts... I honestly think the tow tunes needed to be turned up just a little bit but we never got around to that. You could hold the pedal all the way to the floor in the tow tune and go up any hill and never have to worry about egts... but sometimes would not have the power you wanted.

With the S366 EGTs are very manageable. That being said, with a trailer in tow @ WOT it can break 1300* but it has all the power I need. Are the tow tunes you are running closer to the 300-320hp range and something that would be capable out of stock injectors? Or are my stock injectors being pushed out of their efficiency range, bad tuning, high reading EGT gauge, or just normal? I believe the truck is in the 300-320hp range. Smoke clears up quickly and almost zero haze at WOT. The truck did pick up 50* on the top end when I switch from a billet 6+6 to an 11+0. Could not stand the noise of the 6+6. Read a 6.7 turbo testing thread of yours to make my decision to go from 6+6 to 11+0. Just like your dyno results, the 11+0 spooled faster.

Not to derail this but it brings me to the whole KC drop-in vs. T4 "debate". My S366 runs just as hot as all the KC drop-in naysayers claim the KC38r/300x series does. I have yet to see for myself the whole "throw out the EGT gauge" once you go to T4.

 

[akcooper9]

Not to derail this but it brings me to the whole KC drop-in vs. T4 "debate". My S366 runs just as hot as all the KC drop-in naysayers claim the KC38r/300x series does. I have yet to see for myself the whole "throw out the EGT gauge" once you go to T4.

Correct me if Im wrong but you dont have a true/new SXE from BW. Didn't you buy a sxe style turbine wheel of ebay and the 11 blade compressor wheel from China? IMHO you dont have a real SXE

I can tell you my BW SXE makes something greater then 35+ PSI as I have no problem burying the needle on the 35 PSI gauge.

:swordfight:

 

[KCTurbos]

First off... I don't want this to turn into a t4 vs drop in pissing contest (which is what always seems to happen). But I will say that our drop in turbos have changed DRAMATICALLY over the last few years and improved greatly.

I will also say that I can't tell you how many hours I spend each day helping people fix boost/exhaust leaks that lead to performance issues across all platforms. I literally have hired people to spend their days on the phone/email/pm/text/instagram/forums/etc helping people fix/find boost and exhaust leaks.

With that said... with our newest turbo designs... I have never had a truck with major egt issues that did not come down to boost/exhaust leaks or trying to lug the motor in OD going up a hill. I truly believe a lot of guys fix missed boost/exhaust leaks when going t4. Not saying t4 does not work great. But I can't tell you how many turbos I get sent back for "warranty" issues that you can see obvious signs that the up pipe clamps were not lined up right. Also when inspecting trucks in person that have egt issues we quickly find boost/exhaust leaks and the problems go away.

So why would t4 guys not struggle with boost/exhaust leaks? Well they do, because I help them fix them all the time. But I would also venture to say that a lot of common leaks gets fixed when you replace every part associated with boost/exhaust system AND the type of person that would be willing to dive into a t4 kit would also be the type of person to find/fix leaks that are present.



But back to your original questions. I am not sure on the HP of the tow tunes he had. We did not dyno the tow tunes. They were limited enough that when towing REALLY heavy up a big hill he would sometimes run into issues of holding the pedal all the way to the floor and not being able to maintain a steady speed BUT ALSO couldn't get his egts above 1100-1200 degrees no matter how hard he tried. I told him he just needed to turn the tune up a little bit so he could push the 1200-1300egts and have a little more power. With average loads he always had plenty of power. (he sometimes gross 30k going up 7% grades)

Now with the 238/80 he has more power... but can easily fly past 1300 degrees when not even going above 3/4 throttle. He never needs that much power with average loads and never struggles with egts. But when he really gets up their in weight he has to be careful.

I think some more live tuning could alleviate either problem with either injector size... but not everyone has access to live tuning or willing to watch gauges as closely as he does.


Your issue could be related to not being a true SXE turbo
Boost/exhaust leak?
Stock injectors not maintaining great ICP?
Running too much PW and creating excess heat (PW vs Nozzle size is a balancing act when it comes to optimizing performance)
Rpm placement?