205/30 T4 s369 vs s364.5

[KCTurbos]

Started a new thread

Well... we have a lot of data to report. I don't want to post up too much and make it a mess. But I don't want to leave anything out. I will display the info in a couple of different ways.

1999 f250 eclb, ceramic coated pistons, ******** cam, irate headers and t4 kit, mild port job, stock fuel pump, driven diesel FB ******, MB 17 degree pump


205/30
s369/73/.91 vs s364.5/73/.91

I know this is the one a lot of guys were excited for. I can tell you the graphs 100% backed up exactly what we noticed on the streets and towing.

For daily driving the s369 was a little lazy down low. It did not lack fuel down low at all and could be smokey at times. But the mid range and top end was a blast. It cleaned up those 205/30s to nothing once you got the turbo spooled.

Towing light the 369 did great and easily kept egts in check, but if you towed heavy and in high elevation the s369 was a NIGHTMARE! We would have to downshift into 2nd gear sometimes just to try and stay on top of the turbo. It would often shift and snuff out the turbo when rpms dropped. One time he even had to drop down into 1st gear just to keep going. Oil temps got really high also, often topping 250 on grades he has never had issues with. We were at UCC when James got the call from Zac after the first time he tried towing heavy in high elevation... I think his exact words were "I want this F**king POS off my truck right now" Zac uses his truck as a tow truck for a living.


The s364.5 spooled much better for the streets. It did not have quite the top end power of the s369 but was much easier to drive around with less smoke.

Towing the s364.5 did awesome. Just as good if not better than the BASB we had on before. Egts were almost never an issue unless lugging the motor in OD. Towed great light/heavy and in all scenarios. Where we would have to downshift into 1st or 2nd with the 369, the 364.5 would pull in 3rd or 4th with lower egts and oil temps. IMO this is the ticket for middle of the road guys who want great power and good towing.




Here is the dyno graph: It backs up exactly what we experienced.

On the top end the 369 did make 15-20hp more

But the s364.5 made 36tq more and made it 260rpms sooner (2280 vs 2440)

But as you move lower in the rpms it becomes even more impressive. The farther down in the rpms the better the s364.5 did. At 1900rpms the s364.5 made about 100hp and 300tq more than the 369.

Keep in mind this testing was done on an ALL OUT race tune. On a tow tune there is not enough fuel for the s369 to make any more power than the s364.5. Those 30% nozzles need a LOT of PW to make decent power. Most tuners won't even write more than a 4.2ms tune... but you can gain upwards of 100hp on a 5.6ms tune. Something to keep in mind.


Personal opinion... anything bigger than an s364.5 on 205/30% or smaller is a waste. You gain about 200-300rpms of lag and lose a ton of towing ability to gain a little top end power and only on an ALL OUT race tune (which most tuners won't even write for you unless you specially request it).

 

[liquidlounge]

This makes me wonder if the 363 SXE wouldn't be the perfect turbo for stock injectors or 160/0 AC's?

 

[PABowhunter]

Awesome test you guys did here. Good info for sure.

Where would you expect a 366 power curve to land? Any plans to throw a 366 on as well?

Looking forward to your test with 238/80's.

 

[bigfords]

Liquidlounge, I believe you are correct. I've got one on my Excursion with stick injectors and it works excellent. Planning for 160/00s sometime later this year.

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[ja_cain]

I don't like the fact that this truck has an aftermarket cam and headers, but it's still good stuff. Most people aren't going to go through the trouble of running these. You guys should send these turbos to Charles to test with some 200% nozzled hybrids. He seems to have a knack for dialing them in. I would love to see his impressions on the 364.5/366 vs the 38r.

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[KCTurbos]

I don't like the fact that this truck has an aftermarket cam and headers, but it's still good stuff. Most people aren't going to go through the trouble of running these. You guys should send these turbos to Charles to test with some 200% nozzled hybrids. He seems to have a knack for dialing them in. I would love to see his impressions on the 364.5/366 vs the 38r.

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We are doing lots of testing back to back. As long as we keep the same mods it should not affect anything because they will both get the same advantages.

We have 238/80s on the truck now. Going to do the same tests but with a 366 this time. We are working with some of the best tuners in the business. Tuning is not an issue.


We have 2 different test truck going right now. Running the exact same injectors and comparing drop in options and t4 options on the same size injectors. Not exactly apples to apples because the t4 truck has more mods... but still very interesting.

 

[ja_cain]

We are doing lots of testing back to back. As long as we keep the same mods it should not affect anything because they will both get the same advantages.



We have 238/80s on the truck now. Going to do the same tests but with a 366 this time. We are working with some of the best tuners in the business. Tuning is not an issue.





We have 2 different test truck going right now. Running the exact same injectors and comparing drop in options and t4 options on the same size injectors. Not exactly apples to apples because the t4 truck has more mods... but still very interesting.

That's the key. Need to keep everything the same so there are no confounders.

I will never be interested in an all out tune/setup. Max towing is what I am interested in. I would like to see someone compare different injector/nozzle/turbo combos. Not just limit them to small nozzle hybrids and below. Any good tuner should be able to create an ultimate tune file for even a 200% over hybrid injector that tows cool and keeps the turbo lit.

Thanks again for taking the time to perform these test and then share the results. I really appreciate it the fact that someone still cares about these old dinosaurs.

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[KCTurbos]

That's the key. Need to keep everything the same so there are no confounders.

I will never be interested in an all out tune/setup. Max towing is what I am interested in. I would like to see someone compare different injector/nozzle/turbo combos. Not just limit them to small nozzle hybrids and below. Any good tuner should be able to create an ultimate tune file for even a 200% over hybrid injector that tows cool and keeps the turbo lit.

Thanks again for taking the time to perform these test and then share the results. I really appreciate it the fact that someone still cares about these old dinosaurs.

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Thanks, it is a lot of fun and helps us provide better info to our customer. Much of this is stuff we have learned over the years from selling 1000s of turbo/injectors combos and seeing what works. But people really like to see the data.



I saw you mention 200% nozzles. I don't exactly know the appeal of the giant nozzles on a daily is? If the smaller nozzles do everything better then why spend so much time trying to get 200% to run almost as good.

I mean for racing it makes sense? But for a daily that tows a lot? Why.

I have seen many comments that "any good tuner should"... but I deal with a lot of the best tuners. Jelibuilt, 1023, ********, SDK, PHP, Andrew Aurthur, etc... they agree that bigger 200% nozzles suck on a daily/tow truck. Takes a long time to dial in to get to run as a good as a 30% or 80% nozzle does right out of the box.

 

[ja_cain]

Thanks, it is a lot of fun and helps us provide better info to our customer. Much of this is stuff we have learned over the years from selling 1000s of turbo/injectors combos and seeing what works. But people really like to see the data.







I saw you mention 200% nozzles. I don't exactly know the appeal of the giant nozzles on a daily is? If the smaller nozzles do everything better then why spend so much time trying to get 200% to run almost as good.



I mean for racing it makes sense? But for a daily that tows a lot? Why.



I have seen many comments that "any good tuner should"... but I deal with a lot of the best tuners. Jelibuilt, 1023, ********, SDK, PHP, Andrew Aurthur, etc... they agree that bigger 200% nozzles suck on a daily/tow truck. Takes a long time to dial in to get to run as a good as a 30% or 80% nozzle does right out of the box.

I know it can be a royal pain to get them dialed in unless you are live tuning. Like using a large cv valve in a system that requires one a quarter of the size. Even more frustrating when it's a dynamic system. There are people that have grossly oversized nozzles and still need to work their truck, so it would be cool to see what they are capable of in heavy tow situations with these interesting turbos.

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[liquidlounge]

Liquidlounge, I believe you are correct. I've got one on my Excursion with stick injectors and it works excellent. Planning for 160/00s sometime later this year.

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Bigfords- is that 363/73/.91?

 

[KCTurbos]

I know it can be a royal pain to get them dialed in unless you are live tuning. Like using a large cv valve in a system that requires one a quarter of the size. Even more frustrating when it's a dynamic system. There are people that have grossly oversized nozzles and still need to work their truck, so it would be cool to see what they are capable of in heavy tow situations with these interesting turbos.

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Gotcha, that makes sense.

I thought you were recommending 200% nozzles for heavy towing. You would be surprised how many people call in with 238/200 or 250/200s having egt and smoke issues. But I read online that bigger nozzles are better in every way.

 

[Redrock2000]

Thanks for the info on 200 nozzles as I planned 250/200 with a 369 sxe. What about 238,250/100s it's a 369?

 

[ja_cain]

Gotcha, that makes sense.



I thought you were recommending 200% nozzles for heavy towing. You would be surprised how many people call in with 238/200 or 250/200s having egt and smoke issues. But I read online that bigger nozzles are better in every way.

That being said, I really think there is an advantage to being able to keep the pw under 2 to 2.5 ms. I would love to see pw numbers of anyone towing heavy at 2000 rpm in a tune that makes a clean 300 to 350 to the wheels.

I would never run 200 over nozzles unless I had an emulator and could tune or I had someone close to me that could live tune on the street. Unfortunately there are no good 7.3 tuners that I am aware of in Richmond, VA.

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[bigfords]

Bigfords- is that 363/73/.91?

Liquidlounge I'll have to check on that, I dont remember what I ended up with. Thinking 68 but I'll have to double check.

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[jbolen323]

That being said, I really think there is an advantage to being able to keep the pw under 2 to 2.5 ms. I would love to see pw numbers of anyone towing heavy at 2000 rpm in a tune that makes a clean 300 to 350 to the wheels.

I would never run 200 over nozzles unless I had an emulator and could tune or I had someone close to me that could live tune on the street. Unfortunately there are no good 7.3 tuners that I am aware of in Richmond, VA.

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brian jelich is in that area and can take care of you.

 

[ja_cain]

brian jelich is in that area and can take care of you.

Thanks! I'll look him up!

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[gwunter]

Thanks! I'll look him up!

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Such a newb. Lol

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[ja_cain]

Such a newb. Lol

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Dude needs to step his game up! Lol!

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[INFRNL]

At what elevation are you considering high? I'd also like to see results of the 366 in comparison.

I'm currently in the process of trying to figure out what the best setup for me is. I'm also not sure that i chose the best injector size. I have recently read so many mixed results/opinions on injectors.

I have an 03 cc dually with 4:10s and 35's. Back in 2012-2013 iirc, i talked to Bill (PHP) and decided on 250/100 injectors as that would be the limit for my pmr's. I tow occasionally pulling up to 15k. At the time I chose to get a t4 setup and run the pius lasb turbo. Does good but imo too laggy here at 6500' in elevation. Fun when empty and you learn to either spool up (which I don't like to do) or you have to ease into it off the line (not ideal either).

Recently i upgraded to a hydra chip (didn't exist back then).
After talking to Dusty (1023), i decided to get a 369sxe w/.91ar housing (for better spool up at my elevation).

Slightly more lag than the lasb but moves a little more air. Can be fun when timing is perfect after easing into it from a dead stop. Punching it off the line is not a good option as you sit and wait for the turbo to spool and fill the road up with enough smoke causing someone to call the fire dept(actually happened once just outside of town)

To me, the 369sxe likes to be around 2000-2200 rpms . If rpms get around 1500 give or take a few, and you need to build speed back up...it will put out a lot of smoke until 1800+ rpms. I know the 35's don't help, but stock tires don't help much either.

I'm currently working on a 76 f350 crewcab getting a 2001 factory forged motor with a zf6 and 250/100's. Irate recommended the 366sxe w/.91ar housing as it should help spool up better.

I don't know if I chose the right size injectors (I've lost 1-2 mpg)but i wanted the power for fun with occasional towing. Also don't know if I made the right choice for turbo. I definitely have to watch my egt's empty and towing) higher elevations make it even worse.

The best my truck has ever done in regards to fuel economy and egt's was stock injectors and piping, turbonetics turbo and php tunes. I had zero lag, truck just took off like a bat out of hell and best fuel economy this truck has ever seen (14-15 in town, 17-18 hwy...hand calculated) not too bad for a big cc lb 4wd dually in a hilly 6500' town. Now i have to fight to get 13...winter fuel gets me down to 10-11mpg and i drive like an old man.

Thanks for listening to me ramble

 

[KCTurbos]

At what elevation are you considering high? I'd also like to see results of the 366 in comparison.

I'm currently in the process of trying to figure out what the best setup for me is. I'm also not sure that i chose the best injector size. I have recently read so many mixed results/opinions on injectors.

I have an 03 cc dually with 4:10s and 35's. Back in 2012-2013 iirc, i talked to Bill (PHP) and decided on 250/100 injectors as that would be the limit for my pmr's. I tow occasionally pulling up to 15k. At the time I chose to get a t4 setup and run the pius lasb turbo. Does good but imo too laggy here at 6500' in elevation. Fun when empty and you learn to either spool up (which I don't like to do) or you have to ease into it off the line (not ideal either).

Recently i upgraded to a hydra chip (didn't exist back then).
After talking to Dusty (1023), i decided to get a 369sxe w/.91ar housing (for better spool up at my elevation).

Slightly more lag than the lasb but moves a little more air. Can be fun when timing is perfect after easing into it from a dead stop. Punching it off the line is not a good option as you sit and wait for the turbo to spool and fill the road up with enough smoke causing someone to call the fire dept(actually happened once just outside of town)

To me, the 369sxe likes to be around 2000-2200 rpms . If rpms get around 1500 give or take a few, and you need to build speed back up...it will put out a lot of smoke until 1800+ rpms. I know the 35's don't help, but stock tires don't help much either.

I'm currently working on a 76 f350 crewcab getting a 2001 factory forged motor with a zf6 and 250/100's. Irate recommended the 366sxe w/.91ar housing as it should help spool up better.

I don't know if I chose the right size injectors (I've lost 1-2 mpg)but i wanted the power for fun with occasional towing. Also don't know if I made the right choice for turbo. I definitely have to watch my egt's empty and towing) higher elevations make it even worse.

The best my truck has ever done in regards to fuel economy and egt's was stock injectors and piping, turbonetics turbo and php tunes. I had zero lag, truck just took off like a bat out of hell and best fuel economy this truck has ever seen (14-15 in town, 17-18 hwy...hand calculated) not too bad for a big cc lb 4wd dually in a hilly 6500' town. Now i have to fight to get 13...winter fuel gets me down to 10-11mpg and i drive like an old man.

Thanks for listening to me ramble

Here in Az we can go from 600ft to 7500ft in about 2 hours. So we have a great deal of hills and elevation here. At sea level you don't notice the lag as much... but as you know, turbo lag is greatly exaggerated the more you go up in elevation.

250/100 and s369 is an awesome street setup at sea level... but I can only imagine how much that sucks trying to pull 15K at higher elevation.


No one can tell you what the right setup is for you... but by going smaller you will see a huge increase in towing ability and spool up from a dead stop all the way up to 2500rpms but you are going to lose top end power above 2500rpms to redline.