FrankTheTank
Active member
If an 4r can go behind a 6.0 with a PCS why can't a 5r go behind a 7.3 with a PCS. Minus all the complex shifting tables and not cost effective but I don't see why it can't be done? Or am i missing something?
7.3 swap into a 2006 6.0l
- Thread starter Big&dirty
- Start date
Mark Kovalsky
Active member
First, there was never a 5R110 made with a 7.3L bolt pattern. So you'll need an adapter made. There were plenty of 4R100s made with the same bolt pattern as the 6.0L, which uses the same pattern as the gas modular engines.
But that's the easy part. It's WAY harder to make software shift a TorqShift than a 4R100, due to the design of the two transmissions.
The 4R100 is an all non-synchronous design. This means that for each upshift all that happens is a clutch is applied. All you need to do is control the pressure to the oncoming clutch and you're all set.
The TorqShift is MUCH more complicated. The 1-2 and 5-6 shifts are the same, they are non-synchronous and all you need to do is control the pressure of the*OD*clutch. The other shifts are the problem.
The 2-3 is a swap shift. This is a special category of difficult shift. I believe Ford is the only trans maker in the world that still does swap shifts. Others have put swap shift transmissions in production and then replaced them within a few years. To make a swap shift the TorqShift needs to release the OD clutch to downshift the OD gearset while applying the intermediate clutch to upshift the Simpson planetary gearset. This is an upshift and a downshift occurring at the same time in the same trans. From my experience these two shifts MUST complete within 30 milliseconds of each other or it's going to feel awful. If the OD releases too soon the engine speed will flare. The amount of flare is dependent on how much sooner it completes. If it completes before the intermediate has enough capacity the trans goes back to first gear! Then it has to make a 1-3 shift. A few WOT 1-3 shifts means the trans comes out to replace the intermediate clutch. Been there, done that. If the OD releases after the intermediate comes on you end up in 4th gear (1.09:1 ratio) then downshift back to third gear (1.54:1 ratio.) Either way it's really bad.
Now if you made it though that you need to make a 3-5 shift. 4th gear is the 1.09:1 ratio that really isn't used. The 3-5 is a synchronous shift. It's timing requirements are about the same as the swap shift, but there is no downshift. To make the shift the intermediate clutch has to release while the direct clutch applies. If the intermediate releases too soon you get an engine speed flare. If the intermediate releases too late you get a tie up. A tie up is when all three pieces of the planetary gear set are held from turning. This means the output shaft of the trans STOPS. That's not a pleasant thing to have happen when you're at WOT making a 3-5 shift. You can lock the wheels on an upshift! I've done this, too. You can also break expen$ive parts doing a tie up. Been there, done that, too.
Now start thinking of the combination shifts that can happen. How about cruising at 55 MPH behind some slow poke on a two lane road? A passing zone opens and you floor it. Now you may want to go from 6th to 3rd gear. You need to release the direct clutch and apply the intermediate. That's a synchronous shift in reverse.
As you can see from just these few examples it isn't a trivial task to make one of these transmissions shift. It's what I did at Ford for quite a few years, three of them working on the TorqShift. I'd be really surprised if anyone makes a controller for the TorqShift that works really well. I think someone could make one that does some basic shifting, but getting one so that it shifts at least as well as a stock trans is going to be a HUGE task.
But that's the easy part. It's WAY harder to make software shift a TorqShift than a 4R100, due to the design of the two transmissions.
The 4R100 is an all non-synchronous design. This means that for each upshift all that happens is a clutch is applied. All you need to do is control the pressure to the oncoming clutch and you're all set.
The TorqShift is MUCH more complicated. The 1-2 and 5-6 shifts are the same, they are non-synchronous and all you need to do is control the pressure of the*OD*clutch. The other shifts are the problem.
The 2-3 is a swap shift. This is a special category of difficult shift. I believe Ford is the only trans maker in the world that still does swap shifts. Others have put swap shift transmissions in production and then replaced them within a few years. To make a swap shift the TorqShift needs to release the OD clutch to downshift the OD gearset while applying the intermediate clutch to upshift the Simpson planetary gearset. This is an upshift and a downshift occurring at the same time in the same trans. From my experience these two shifts MUST complete within 30 milliseconds of each other or it's going to feel awful. If the OD releases too soon the engine speed will flare. The amount of flare is dependent on how much sooner it completes. If it completes before the intermediate has enough capacity the trans goes back to first gear! Then it has to make a 1-3 shift. A few WOT 1-3 shifts means the trans comes out to replace the intermediate clutch. Been there, done that. If the OD releases after the intermediate comes on you end up in 4th gear (1.09:1 ratio) then downshift back to third gear (1.54:1 ratio.) Either way it's really bad.
Now if you made it though that you need to make a 3-5 shift. 4th gear is the 1.09:1 ratio that really isn't used. The 3-5 is a synchronous shift. It's timing requirements are about the same as the swap shift, but there is no downshift. To make the shift the intermediate clutch has to release while the direct clutch applies. If the intermediate releases too soon you get an engine speed flare. If the intermediate releases too late you get a tie up. A tie up is when all three pieces of the planetary gear set are held from turning. This means the output shaft of the trans STOPS. That's not a pleasant thing to have happen when you're at WOT making a 3-5 shift. You can lock the wheels on an upshift! I've done this, too. You can also break expen$ive parts doing a tie up. Been there, done that, too.
Now start thinking of the combination shifts that can happen. How about cruising at 55 MPH behind some slow poke on a two lane road? A passing zone opens and you floor it. Now you may want to go from 6th to 3rd gear. You need to release the direct clutch and apply the intermediate. That's a synchronous shift in reverse.
As you can see from just these few examples it isn't a trivial task to make one of these transmissions shift. It's what I did at Ford for quite a few years, three of them working on the TorqShift. I'd be really surprised if anyone makes a controller for the TorqShift that works really well. I think someone could make one that does some basic shifting, but getting one so that it shifts at least as well as a stock trans is going to be a HUGE task.
psduser1
Well-known member
Good lord, mark....
FrankTheTank
Active member
The bolt battern on a 4r being the same as a 6.0 in a gas engine I wasn't aware of. I thought the guys running 4rs in 6.0s were leaving the top two bolts out.
I knew the 5r shifting tables were very complicated but I had no idea they were THAT complicated. All of which is way over my head anyway
I knew the 5r shifting tables were very complicated but I had no idea they were THAT complicated. All of which is way over my head anyway
Vader's Fury
Active member
The 6.0 is the same as the modular gas motors.
I believe that the 6.4 is the same but not 100%. I am hoping it is as I have a 4r100 from behind a 6.8 that I want to put behind my 6.4 when I get it.
I believe that the 6.4 is the same but not 100%. I am hoping it is as I have a 4r100 from behind a 6.8 that I want to put behind my 6.4 when I get it.
Mark Kovalsky
Active member
Both the 6.0L and the 6.4L use the gas modular engine bolt pattern.
pullandpray
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Wow you learn something new everyday.
TD-5
Member
Good info Mark, thanks for sharing the wealth
shmoozer
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Mark makes me happy when he enters a thread. I always learn so much!
-KCCO-
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Vader's Fury
Active member
Not to derail but is there any difference between a 6.0 5r110 and a 6.4 5r110 besides the Tc bolt pattern.
Luke@MillerPerformance
Member
5r110s break down like this:
03-05, I hate these
'06 - '08, same between 6.0 and 6.4 other than T/C
'09 - '10, are their own thing.
Luke@MillerPerformance
Member
PCS controller kinda works on a 5r110. Using the factory electronics is the best way to run them behind any sort of swap.
OuchThatHurt
Member
If he wanted to do the swap himself... self gratification,.... wouldnt a cummins swap be easier? Destroked makes (or can make) almost anything he needs...
I have a 12V in my 2005 F350, and this is my first Fummins... with no idea what i was getting into. I bought it already swapped. I've had issues, and chased out everything on my own... VERY simple engine / wiring harness to work with.
EDIT: and enough people have done this swap, that when I had an issue I used the google machine and someone had already run into the issue.
I have a 12V in my 2005 F350, and this is my first Fummins... with no idea what i was getting into. I bought it already swapped. I've had issues, and chased out everything on my own... VERY simple engine / wiring harness to work with.
EDIT: and enough people have done this swap, that when I had an issue I used the google machine and someone had already run into the issue.
Just adding to this thread that i am in the process of doing this swap. I have a gutted 2006 6.0 truck in great condition and a 2003 7.3 truck that needs way too much work all around.
It all looks like it will be pretty straight forward. The ABS pump looks like it might be the most complicated part of all this.
It all looks like it will be pretty straight forward. The ABS pump looks like it might be the most complicated part of all this.
IHPowerstroke7.3
New member
Will a 7.3 4r100 combo bolt in place in an 05 frame?
Yes. If using the 4r I think you can even leave the 05 trans cross member.
Engine cross member is the same.
I just bolted it into the '06 last week. I used the 6.0 crosmember. The 4r100 is about 1.5" longer than the 5r110 so the crossmember moves back to a different set of holes already in the frame.
The 6.0 firewall is pushed back about 1.5" so there is a lot more space behind the engine now. It will be much easier to work on.
The 6.0 firewall is pushed back about 1.5" so there is a lot more space behind the engine now. It will be much easier to work on.
IHPowerstroke7.3
New member
Okay that helps. Thanks.
I thought the cabs were the same from 99-2007? If i ever get around to it, plan is to put an 02 body/wiring/engine/trans on an 05 frame. 05 body is gone.
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