Another piece to the lifter failure mystery

DEEZUZ · Oct 23, 2018

Doing heads on a e series and pull this little guy out. I have seen this a million times, like we all have. But this one was different, well at least in a different stage of failure. I noticed the roller was still in tact but had axial play even with no needles falling out yet.

So looks like a oil starvation caused the needles to seize up a few times (which when happened gave the engine a fish bite) and it appears the roller is being wiped by contact in the lifter housing. Thanks to the wear on the pin. Thus wiping the cam lobe.

DEEZUZ · Oct 23, 2018

I forget the exact miles/hours, but somewhere around 84k and 4k hours. Idled to death

Strokersace · Oct 23, 2018

What’s “fish bite”?

I have never heard that term before. Interested to hear what that entails.

DEEZUZ · Oct 23, 2018

Ever have a truck with a bad icp sensor that would produce a very very fast hiccup? Felt like a heavy misfire but for one cycle almost

This one would bite then be ok, then bite bite. #4 would jump on contribution. Both high and low. We knew heads were coming off but I left it with customer that it could be injector or wiring harness. Very intermittent

TooManyToys · Oct 23, 2018

It will be interesting to see what the cam lobe looks like.

I've been doing a lot of reading lately about cam lobe fracture failure due to cyclic stress and Mark (Bismic) pointed me here.

Not that it's not a roller failure, but my interest is chicken or the egg.

Strokersace · Oct 23, 2018

CTC DEEZUL said:
Ever have a truck with a bad icp sensor that would produce a very very fast hiccup? Felt like a heavy misfire but for one cycle almost

This one would bite then be ok, then bite bite. #4 would jump on contribution. Both high and low. We knew heads were coming off but I left it with customer that it could be injector or wiring harness. Very intermittent

Can’t say that I have. Good to know and thank you for the explanation.

DEEZUZ · Oct 23, 2018

The failure goes both ways. Obviously this one was the lifter first. But I've pulled cams and bad lobes and lifters didn't even have a scratch yet.

This lobe was starting to show alot of wear.

Needles seized and ate the roll pin, causing roller to stop intermittently, wearing cam lobe

bismic · Oct 23, 2018

Thanks for posting CTC!

What has your experience been on the cylinder location of these lifter failures? Have you seen any commonalities (my impression has been that it was usually on the rear cylinders).

DEEZUZ · Oct 23, 2018

All across the board. This particular one was #4. And it's usually just 1 or 2 lifters gone with just 1 being about 75% of the time.

The only commonality is its usually exhaust side.

DEEZUZ · Oct 25, 2018

Soooo

Anyone see anything obtuse? I do

Ackerdiesel · Oct 29, 2018

Ouch...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Zeb · Oct 30, 2018

CTC DEEZUL said:
The only commonality is its usually exhaust side.

I have also noticed it is usually the exhaust lifters that fail. Geoff at Colt Cams says it is the lobe profile on the cam that kills lifters.
I would tend to agree with that because the 7.3, 6.0, 6.4, and 6.7 all use the same lifters, the 6.0 and 6.4 cams are very similar, and they have way more lifter issues than the 7.3 and 6.7.
Even tho as, CTC noted, sometimes the lifter looks fine and the cam lobe is wiped out, I think it’s more a cam issue than a lifter issue.

DEEZUZ · Oct 30, 2018

I disagree. And 6.7s do not use the same lifter.

These failures are more than likely due to poor idling oil pressure.

75% of my lifter/cam failures are idle vehicles. Ambulance, utility, pipeline, etc trucks.... All just idle all day long.

The only 1 7.3 cam failure I came across was a truck that was idled to death. 32k miles and 13k hours...

6.4s eat the lifters the same as 6.0s do, but we can add the fuel in the oil to that cause as well.

Zeb · Oct 31, 2018

I was of the understanding that the 6.7 used the same lifter, but I guess I was wrong.
Like you, I’ve only had 1 7.3 in here in 6 years with a lifter failure, and the only history on the truck was it had been under water at some point......
I always chalked up the lifter failure on trucks that idle a lot to the fact that most people still change their oil on mileage instead of hours or mileage whichever comes first like they’re supposed to.
Whatever the reason for failure, I’ve gotten to the point that if I’m doing heads, headstuds on one I put lifters in them.

powerlifter405 · Nov 2, 2018

CTC DEEZUL said:
I disagree. And 6.7s do not use the same lifter.

These failures are more than likely due to poor idling oil pressure.

75% of my lifter/cam failures are idle vehicles. Ambulance, utility, pipeline, etc trucks.... All just idle all day long.

The only 1 7.3 cam failure I came across was a truck that was idled to death. 32k miles and 13k hours...

6.4s eat the lifters the same as 6.0s do, but we can add the fuel in the oil to that cause as well.

In your experience is it idling itself or the "excessive" idle time?
I ask as I'm at 306k and 7931hrs. It had a trailer hooked to daily except for the days it was used for hunting.

I'm the second owner, 1st did all his changes at Ford and the motor was 100% stock when I got it at 298k. It got it for next to nothing at auction and it's run nearly perfect since. I've pondered the life left and I've seen lifter failure on the 6.0 and 6.4 brought up before thus my curiosity.

DEEZUZ · Nov 3, 2018

Your better than perfect on the miles vs hours. Trucks been used and put to work.

It's definitely more to do with excessive idle.

Zeb · Nov 3, 2018

We could beat this subject to death, and that is not my intention at all.
I think a big reason idle time is so hard on lifters is typically trucks that idle a lot do not have the oil changed as frequently as they should. I have a little bit of a hard time seeing how it could be a lack of oil pressure at idle because these motors still have 35+ psi oil pressure at hot idle.
A lot of idle time puts an increased soot load into the oil due to cooler combustion temps, and then add in the fact that then it gets run way to many hours with that dirty oil, and possibly at lower pressure than optimal, and we get to see the results.

DEEZUZ · Nov 3, 2018

Agree, somewhat. LOL

Both types of idling units I see are serviced by milege and hours. So some are 5k miles, others are 200 hours. Of course the 5k mile ones are the one that see upwards of 400 hours on the oil, and the 200 hour ones are changed on time.

Also, if the oil was that beat up, wouldn't we see bearing failure as well? I have yet to come across a lower end failure on these things. I know quite a few people who have had wiped cams, stick a new one in an go and never any other issues. Imo the bearings are alot softer than the lifter rollers.....

By the way it feels good to finally have a decent conversation here!