ARP vs Extreme Studs

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

I hear you Derek - and 600+ club is def. a different ballgame...bottom line is considering the amount of money it costs in labor; unless you are fortunate enough to have the location and tools to do a stud job yourself - it is almost idiotic to not spend a couple extra bucks on a better product to potentially save thousands down the road while at the same time giving yourself better odds if you do want to add on power of staying together. But if you already have ARPs in your truck and are staying around 500HP that does not mean you have an issue. When my stockers go - I will be going to Mike.

In your situation you might as well run the extreme studs. They seem to be a better product than the ARP's and if you're in there you might as well do it once and do it right even if it costs a little more. No reason not too. Even if you don't plan on doing more than just a tune. Why not! A little more peace of mind for any 6.0 owner is worth whatever it costs.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I guess I would consider my truck to make "decent" power. It has been around the 600hp mark since the last time my heads were off just over a year ago. Since then it is making a little more power. Should be right around 700 on fuel now, and has done 710 with a little bit of spray. My truck has the original heads that have been checked and o-ringed and ARP's that have been re used for the third time now, torqued to 225 ft/lbs. The truck has been down the track a few times, MANY wide open pulls on the street, and probably around 30+ dyno pulls with this setup. Never puked a drop of coolant. Maybe I will try the extreme studs when I have an issue, but until then, the arp's are just fine. The benefits of the extreme studs seem legit, but for me, there is no reason to change what works.

Dont fix what isn't broken! I think a big key to what you just said though is O-rings. That does make a significant difference

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

Dont fix what isn't broken! I think a big key to what you just said though is O-rings. That does make a significant difference

I agree. That is why I had my heads O-ringed. I think it really helps.

 

[KCTurbos]

Dont fix what isn't broken! I think a big key to what you just said though is O-rings. That does make a significant difference

:whs:


I thought the same thing but was afraid to post it. Too many people think I am a hater of standard arps and oem gaskets. But I see tons of guys talking about making big power on standard arps with no problems... they usually forget to mention they have orings/fire rings, and/or tear their truck down every once in a while and put on new gaskets

 

[bigrpowr]

I hear you Derek - and 600+ club is def. a different ballgame...bottom line is considering the amount of money it costs in labor; unless you are fortunate enough to have the location and tools to do a stud job yourself - it is almost idiotic to not spend a couple extra bucks on a better product to potentially save thousands down the road while at the same time giving yourself better odds if you do want to add on power of staying together. But if you already have ARPs in your truck and are staying around 500HP that does not mean you have an issue. When my stockers go - I will be going to Mike.

100% agree. nobody needs to $hit their pants over new studs, its just a better quality stud than arp , and possibly more reliable, and for those with stout builds a little more added insurance. many have blown studs with arps. at low and high hp, but that being said many factors ie: head surface, tq'ing, etc ... Extreme is just another option, that i and others feel are better.threads look very clean so no issue there. once i have my stock i will be including the recommended lube, at the moment extreme does not include it, just mention it on the instructon sheet. i think thats pretty weak so all my customers going forward will get the lube.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

:whs:


I thought the same thing but was afraid to post it. Too many people think I am a hater of standard arps and oem gaskets. But I see tons of guys talking about making big power on standard arps with no problems... they usually forget to mention they have orings/fire rings, and/or tear their truck down every once in a while and put on new gaskets

Well I can tell you with mine I don't tear it down to just put new gaskets in unless it needs them. My heads have been off twice since I bought my truck. Once when I first got it and blew the head gaskets stock (but already studded) and then 5k miles later when I did my build, the heads came off to get pushrods and valve springs when I did my original build with 225's and the 66. When the heads came off that time the gaskets looked perfect after 5k miles.

 

[KCTurbos]

Well I can tell you with mine I don't tear it down to just put new gaskets in unless it needs them. My heads have been off twice since I bought my truck. Once when I first got it and blew the head gaskets stock (but already studded) and then 5k miles later when I did my build, the heads came off to get pushrods and valve springs when I did my original build with 225's and the 66. When the heads came off that time the gaskets looked perfect after 5k miles.

No problem... I wasn't calling you out. I have been researching a lot on the subject lately and all those many guys making huge power reliably for long periods of time out of standard arp's and OEM gaskets are getting farther and fewer between. There is usually something else going on.


It seems most of the 6.0 community is under the impression that standard arps, oem gaskets, and popper prep work is good to 1000hp... This is because a couple of guys managed to do it for a short period of time. Seems the more time goes on the more we see that is not proving to be true and guys are pulling their heads for the 2nd or even 3rd time even after doing everything right.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

100% agree. nobody needs to $hit their pants over new studs, its just a better quality stud than arp , and possibly more reliable, and for those with stout builds a little more added insurance. many have blown studs with arps. at low and high hp, but that being said many factors ie: head surface, tq'ing, etc ... Extreme is just another option, that i and others feel are better.threads look very clean so no issue there. once i have my stock i will be including the recommended lube, at the moment extreme does not include it, just mention it on the instructon sheet. i think thats pretty weak so all my customers going forward will get the lube.

For real. It is insane how worked up people have been getting lately over this whole topic. It's simple, if you're doing a head stud job and want the best product just buy these new studs and get over it. I'm sure people will blow gaskets still no matter what studs they use because someone will do a ****ty job prepping something. :fustrate: You can't win, so you might as well buy the better product. Especially if you are including the lube :jawdrop: LOL

 

[bigrpowr]

No problem... I wasn't calling you out. I have been researching a lot on the subject lately and all those many guys making huge power reliably for long periods of time out of standard arp's and OEM gaskets are getting farther and fewer between. There is usually something else going on.


It seems most of the 6.0 community is under the impression that standard arps, oem gaskets, and popper prep work is good to 1000hp... This is because a couple of guys managed to do it for a short period of time. Seems the more time goes on the more we see that is not proving to be true and guys are pulling their heads for the 2nd or even 3rd time even after doing everything right.

one thing that isnt being discussed, is heat cycles and deterioration. you have to assume the material quality has some bearing on longevity over time, miles, and heat cycles. every other metal in the world is subject to it. fatigue and brittle come to mind first and foremost.

 

[JMart]

all my customers going forward will get the lube.

Awesome! I prefer it that way.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

Awesome! I prefer it that way.

He wants to make sure you have adequate lube before you get studded

 

[bigrpowr]

He wants to make sure you have adequate lube before you get studded

i will not derail this thread by falling into you lady's sexual trap.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

i will not derail this thread by falling into you lady's sexual trap.

Oh god. Derail over. Now everyone go buy some extreme studs. Now.

 

[swinky]

Could all these big new vgts be a contributing factor. Seems a lot more gaskets fail on the vgt trucks, granted non vgt isn't quite as popular.

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[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

Could all these big new vgts be a contributing factor. Seems a lot more gaskets fail on the vgt trucks, granted non vgt isn't quite as popular.

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well if the backpressure is higher, than in theory it makes sense that it is harder on the gaskets...

 

[swinky]

well if the backpressure is higher, than in theory it makes sense that it is harder on the gaskets...

My thoughts exactly. And regardless of your heads being o-ringed. If the stud stretched It would puke. Same torque spec for o-rings as gaskets?

 

[KCTurbos]

I understand where you guys are coming from and I agree to a certain extent. I have talked with a lot of guys recently that have had problems blowing gaskets. Many of them have large vgts, but other have large non vgt singles, and also compounds. Many of the guys running large singles get just as high if not higher back pressure than the vgt turbos guys do. Back pressure is a funny term that gets thrown around but very very few people actually run a back pressure gauge and actually know what is going on (factory gauges are limited and misleading). Also there is no way to increase boost without increasing back pressure. You cant make 50psi of boost on 30 psi of back pressure. I know plenty of guys that see 100+ psi of back pressure coming from a large single non vgt on a hard acceleration... vgts are not the only culprit of back pressure.


Although something that a vgt turbo can achieve that large single non vgts cant is super high boost at super low rpms. VGT turbos typically have the ability to reach maximum boost much lower in the rpms band. This causes super high pressure ratios at a much lower flow rate. This can equate to having more pressure in the cylinder at lower rpms before the motor gets spinning and flowing more air. 45psi at 2.4ms of fuel and 2800 rpms is way different then at 3500 rpms.


Orings and Fire rings also serve different purposes. One of the purposes that both of them share is it directs the pressure from coming from the head/studs into a smaller area. This in essence would help the gaskets not to blow even if the head flexes a little bit and/or the stud stretches. That oring/fire ring will be the last thing that touches before the heads blow. We are talking very small measurements... but it does not take much to blow a gasket. Much of the reason our heads are blowing comes from the head flexing and not just the stud stretching. Even the best stud in the world will not stop the heads from flexing in between the cylinders (boy do I wish we had more head bolts). But if you were to put fire rings in that area... theoretically while you are torquing down heads/studs the first thing that the head touches will be the fire ring. It will have the most pressure pushing back against the head in the fire ring area. When the head flexes and/or the stud stretches the fire ring area will have a little rebound from the extra pressure and help the gaskets not to blow.

 

[swinky]

If a stud stretches it's going to puke.

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[sootie]

imo this is just yet another internet hype fest.

let some miles get put on these extreme studs before any amazing statements are made. i understand marketing etc and i understand logic/theory.

nothing beats real world data.

 

[KCTurbos]

If a stud stretches it's going to puke.

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Do you know the difference between a fire ring and an oring?

Do you know why fire rings help?

How much do you think these studs are "stretching" under a heavy load?