Detuning large injector nozzles - How to pick injector size for upgrades!

[CurtisF]

Were you pulling those heavy loads up a 7% grade at 1800rpms in OD while keeping egts under 1100? Dont forget about that part.

No, because you can't do that with stock injectors at altitude on a 7% grade at 1800 rpms in OD either. Because it ALWAYS downshifts or continues to slow down. You cannot maintain speed on a stock calibration because there isn't enough power, and if you want more power... you MUST downshift.

My truck would also downshift, just like the stock calibration.

I would bet you can tow with ANY turbo/injector combo. But you are going to have to change your driving style and work a lot on tuning.

Tuning yes. Driving style... no.

Learn how these trucks drive before you try and talk smack to someone else. Obviously you've never towed heavy at altitude... stock or not.

 

[TyCorr]

Were you pulling those heavy loads up a 7% grade at 1800rpms in OD while keeping egts under 1100? Dont forget about that part.


I would bet you can tow with ANY turbo/injector combo. But you are going to have to change your driving style and work a lot on tuning.

Oh hell, there are people fighting that issue on stock trucks with a chip. Its not exclusive to too large of an injector.

Ive only had three sets of tunes for my setup. Two from php and one from dynoproven. Keeping the truck cool isnt an issue either way.

 

[CurtisF]

Oh hell, there are people fighting that issue on stock trucks with a chip.

Yep, and you can't even try it on a bone stock truck with a completely stock calibration. It will downshift or lose speed 100% of the time.

Gotta love it when someone makes up an impossible scenario and dares you to try it. :lame:

 

[TyCorr]

Yep, and you can't even try it on a bone stock truck with a completely stock calibration. It will downshift or lose speed 100% of the time.

Gotta love it when someone makes up an impossible scenario and dares you to try it. :lame:

I did pull 20k lbs up grade for a few miles two years ago on stock fuel with a 38r. But i hit it at 70 and by mile 1 was down to 60....then i manually locked out od and held it to the floor and held 55-60 for 3 more miles...im not sure what egts were doing.

Edit:not stock pcm...40hp php heavy tow tune. Which trans tuning wise was the difference.

 

[m_j]

factory tunes in a 7.3 do not pull at 1800rpm so why would a modified one?

any idiot trying to get better fuel economy with low rpm while climbing a hill doesnt have a sniff anyway.

low rpm is for flatland cruising, pulling a hill is time for power and that is far easier on the motor at the upper end of the tach. get up the hill as efficiently as possible in the shortest time.

when I was a company driver for a fleet I would beat low rpm drivers in both trip time and burn as much as 100litres of fuel less then the guys that pulled the n14s down to 1400rpm before downshifting.I keep the rpm 1700 -2100 up the big hills.
all trucks were governed at 104km/h loaded at 104500# running the fraser canyon up and the coquihalla back
the higher the HP rating the less fuel I burned.

low rpm and low power do not make for better fuel economy in my experience.
keep the EGT gauge happy

 

[TyCorr]

factory tunes in a 7.3 do not pull at 1800rpm so why would a modified one?

any idiot trying to get better fuel economy with low rpm while climbing a hill doesnt have a sniff anyway.

low rpm is for flatland cruising, pulling a hill is time for power and that is far easier on the motor at the upper end of the tach. get up the hill as efficiently as possible in the shortest time.

when I was a company driver for a fleet I would beat low rpm drivers in both trip time and burn as much as 100litres of fuel less then the guys that pulled the n14s down to 1400rpm before downshifting.I keep the rpm 1700 -2100 up the big hills.
all trucks were governed at 104km/h loaded at 104500# running the fraser canyon up and the coquihalla back
the higher the HP rating the less fuel I burned.

low rpm and low power do not make for better fuel economy in my experience.
keep the EGT gauge happy

In my last post, thsts pretty much what happened to...the hill.pulled me down from 2100 to about 1700 and i downshifted and gotva bump to 2000 and then climbed another 200rpm...after that all good.

 

[CurtisF]

In my last post, thsts pretty much what happened to...the hill.pulled me down from 2100 to about 1700 and i downshifted and gotva bump to 2000 and then climbed another 200rpm...after that all good.

It's what has to happen, there's no way around it regardless of the injectors.

 

[psduser1]

80% nozzle and done.
I've pulled the same route many times, both stock and 100% over nozzles, 1500 miles, each way. Flatland, and 6% grade, about 8 miles worth, and without a doubt, the bigger nozzle wins every time. Fuel usage, egts, drivablity, you name it.
That's on an a code injector, and 38r.

If I had to drop out of top gear-traffic or whatever-I could run the rpms back to 3400 with ease and egts only hit 1250.
Of course the supporting mods have to done to do this, hpo, Intake, fuel supply, etc.
3.73s, 34.3" tires, blah, blah, blah.
Running on Matt's hot street tune, with 14000+ hooked behind the truck.

Yes it can and is being done. Every day.
If I ever get time, I'm dropping in a set of 300/200s and tuning, and try that setup, just for s&g.
I think it'll be fun.

 

[lincolnlocker]

It is defnitely possibly to retard SOI. But that does not give you control over SOC... that has to be theorized. There is NO WAY to "tune around" the physics of how the motor works. It is a trade off. If it was possible to get GIANT 200% nozzles to run "perfect" down low just like stock nozzles just through tuning then EVERYONE WOULD DO IT. Cummins guys, Duramax gusy, common rail guys. EVERYONE. But you cant. Hop on one of the duramax forums forums or 6.7 powerstroke forums. With better turbos, more efficient injection system, better heads, better tuning, etc... they DON'T RECOMMEND GIANT NOZZLES FOR TOWING, most don't reccommend them even for daily driving.

This is not to say... through a lot of trial and error, to get your truck to "work". But it is not optimal for most guys. For 90% of the population, who are not chasing big HP, GIANT NOZZLES are not the answer. You will get everything and more out of a smaller set of nozzles and end up withing 5-10hp of what you would have had with GIANT NOZZLES



This is an AWESOME read for any seriously interested in learning more.
http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html

it takes a lot of work and they guys that love the big nozzles for towing have put in the time. ask Charles about towing with his 400s..

I was not exactly sure what you meant by this... but I can tell you that one of the BIGGEST complaints I have is guys trying to drive/tow like a stock truck with larger HP parts because they read on the internet that it tows just fine. People forget to metnion the "downsides" of some of these setups.


THESE ARE REAL SCENARIOS WITH CUSTOMERS>>> I WILL GIVE AN EXAMPLE


Customer: "Oh no, What should I do? I have 250/100s and your turbo. If I try to tow 12k up a 7% at 1800rpms in OD my egts climb up past 1200 degress so I have to let out of the throttle. I end up climbing the hills at like 30mph to keep my EGTs in check"



Our Response: "Try downshifting and towing at 2200-2500rpms. Use the tow/haul button and try to keep your rpms up a little more. That will help the truck run cooler and cleaner"


Customer: "but I want the best fuel mileage. I read on the internet that if I keep my rpms down then I will get better fuel mileage while towing. Also I can't tow at 2500rpms. That is almost redline. I don't want to hurt my motor"


Our Response: These trucks tow much better at 2200-2500rpms. That rpm range will not hurt anything.


Customer: "I tried what you said and it cooled right down but I am not happy, I think something is wrong with my setup. I read on the internet that guys tow just fine with this setup. Maybe I need to go with a bigger turbo or larger nozzles. I read on the internet that those guys have great luck towing with 250/200s and an s369 turbo. The larger nozzles make the truck run cooler and the s369 flows over 95 lbs/min. Do you think that will help?


Our Response: :cursing::badidea::cursing:





I think sometimes you guys don't realize what happens with all this info posted on the inernet... maybe this gives you a better idea.

we understand but what the guys you deal with dont understand is that, like i said before, it takes a lot of seat time to make each combo run perfect. hell, i had a hell of a time getting my dually tuned by mail with just 100% nozzles. just basic 170/100s. then i said *** it and drove 9 hrs to beans and had Johnathan live tune it on the dyno.


same can be said for my setup and why i dont go bragging all over the place about it.. my measly injectors(and mods), which there are thousands set up the same way, makes 30 to 50 hp more than any other identical setup out there.. as in track times put it between 450 and 470hp.. if there has been any duplication of hp then i haven't heard about it.. that is why i dont tell joe blow that yeah you will make this hp with the same setup cuz they wont and they wont grasp the concept that its not typical and it shouldn't make what it does.. it should be 400 to 430hp.. that is it..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[mtsnowrunner]

With Stage 1's and stage 2's paired with a D66 RPM would sometimes be needed to cool EGT'S. This was required because it's a ****ty turbo! Now running 250/100's and the BASB the high RPM doesn't do as much because the turbo is already flowing so well. I guarantee if you run this turbo you will be shocked, I hardly ever feel under the turbo. No live tuning just sent data logs into PHP for revisions. I tow everyday and sometimes heavy and I am impressed with the truck daily, the turbo flat makes it a different animal.

 

[ja_cain]

With Stage 1's and stage 2's paired with a D66 RPM would sometimes be needed to cool EGT'S. This was required because it's a ****ty turbo! Now running 250/100's and the BASB the high RPM doesn't do as much because the turbo is already flowing so well. I guarantee if you run this turbo you will be shocked, I hardly ever feel under the turbo. No live tuning just sent data logs into PHP for revisions. I tow everyday and sometimes heavy and I am impressed with the truck daily, the turbo flat makes it a different animal.

Awesome testimony! 6spd or auto?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[PSD POWER007]

I'll gladly send you an excel form that will allow you to make identical graphs to those if you promise to fill them out entirely for both a hybrid 200% injector and an A-code 200% injector and post them up here for everyone to see. Then we can all be looking at graphs utilizing the same formatting and color schemes. Better yet would be to run all these injectors on one flow bench, but I don't know of any truly neutral flow benches and don't want to introduce bias.

Did you ever get taken up on this offer? I always like to see the numbers that back up the claims.

 

[The Brad]

It is defnitely possibly to retard SOI. But that does not give you control over SOC... that has to be theorized. There is NO WAY to "tune around" the physics of how the motor works. It is a trade off. If it was possible to get GIANT 200% nozzles to run "perfect" down low just like stock nozzles just through tuning then EVERYONE WOULD DO IT. Cummins guys, Duramax gusy, common rail guys. EVERYONE. But you cant. Hop on one of the duramax forums forums or 6.7 powerstroke forums. With better turbos, more efficient injection system, better heads, better tuning, etc... they DON'T RECOMMEND GIANT NOZZLES FOR TOWING, most don't reccommend them even for daily driving.

This is not to say... through a lot of trial and error, to get your truck to "work". But it is not optimal for most guys. For 90% of the population, who are not chasing big HP, GIANT NOZZLES are not the answer. You will get everything and more out of a smaller set of nozzles and end up withing 5-10hp of what you would have had with GIANT NOZZLES



This is an AWESOME read for any seriously interested in learning more.
http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html

So where does a guy who is willing to spend the time and money go to get live tuned with a transducer installed to read cylinder pressure? I've had this truck since new and I'm gonna have it for another 16 years.

 

[ja_cain]

So where does a guy who is willing to spend the time and money go to get live tuned with a transducer installed to read cylinder pressure? I've had this truck since new and I'm gonna have it for another 16 years.

Swamps in Tennessee can do it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[superpsd]

Swamps in Tennessee can do it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Yup just had them a blank check and your truck imp:

 

[KCTurbos]

Yep, and you can't even try it on a bone stock truck with a completely stock calibration. It will downshift or lose speed 100% of the time.

Gotta love it when someone makes up an impossible scenario and dares you to try it. :lame:

Impossible scenario?

We are talking about modified trucks right? Who runs 100% stock tuning calibrations?
Have you ever heard of a stick truck?
Did you realize I was not talking about my personal experiences?
Where did I dare anyone to try it?


I live at 1000ft and can be at 8000ft in about 2 hours. Yes I do tow heavy, in elevation, 7% grades, in 115 degree weather in the summer time. You might want to take a step back and re-read my post. I would never try to tow like that... BUT CUSTOMERS DO.

Add plus or minus a couple hundred rpms, change the nozzle, change turbo turbo... change around whatever you like. Fact of the matter is bigger nozzles and bigger turbos make it harder to tow under normal conditions. That was the point. No reason to sell anyone on 200% nozzles when smaller nozzles will do just fine, with less problems and easier to tune/run/tow.



Sure you can spend coutnless hours tuning giant nozzles to get them to run right? But you could also just run smaller nozzles and not have to worry about that. Heck you could even spend countless hours tuning smaller nozzles to optimize the setup even more.

If you need giant nozzles, then great! Run them. The point was that not everyone needs giant nozzles and it is a good idea to educate the masses to limit hassle/issues/unhappy customers.



If anyone was curious... the scenario I pointed out is a TRUE STORY from a customer. Seriously! I actually deal with simialr scenarios all the time... as I am sure many other shops do also. Which might have been the whole point of this thread.

 

[KCTurbos]

it takes a lot of work and they guys that love the big nozzles for towing have put in the time. ask Charles about towing with his 400s..



we understand but what the guys you deal with dont understand is that, like i said before, it takes a lot of seat time to make each combo run perfect. hell, i had a hell of a time getting my dually tuned by mail with just 100% nozzles. just basic 170/100s. then i said *** it and drove 9 hrs to beans and had Johnathan live tune it on the dyno.


same can be said for my setup and why i dont go bragging all over the place about it.. my measly injectors(and mods), which there are thousands set up the same way, makes 30 to 50 hp more than any other identical setup out there.. as in track times put it between 450 and 470hp.. if there has been any duplication of hp then i haven't heard about it.. that is why i dont tell joe blow that yeah you will make this hp with the same setup cuz they wont and they wont grasp the concept that its not typical and it shouldn't make what it does.. it should be 400 to 430hp.. that is it..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

I think it is great that you have such great luck. I also think it is great that you don't brag about it. I wish everyone understood like you do. BUT THEY DON'T

And whenever someone posts up the benefits of smaller nozzles and why they have big advatages, you get 2 or 3 guys that say "I tow with 250/200s with no problems". Then the debate starts, then some poor SAP who just wants a good tow rig ends up with 250/200s and s468 and ends up having problems. That "seat time" or "hours of tuning" is usually done for free by some shop that eats all that time/money/effort because someone read on the internet that 250/200 "runs better than any other injector".

 

[CurtisF]

Impossible scenario?

We are talking about modified trucks right? Who runs 100% stock tuning calibrations?
Have you ever heard of a stick truck?
Did you realize I was not talking about my personal experiences?
Where did I dare anyone to try it?


I live at 1000ft and can be at 8000ft in about 2 hours. Yes I do tow heavy, in elevation, 7% grades, in 115 degree weather in the summer time. You might want to take a step back and re-read my post. I would never try to tow like that... BUT CUSTOMERS DO.

Add plus or minus a couple hundred rpms, change the nozzle, change turbo turbo... change around whatever you like. Fact of the matter is bigger nozzles and bigger turbos make it harder to tow under normal conditions. That was the point. No reason to sell anyone on 200% nozzles when smaller nozzles will do just fine, with less problems and easier to tune/run/tow.



Sure you can spend coutnless hours tuning giant nozzles to get them to run right? But you could also just run smaller nozzles and not have to worry about that. Heck you could even spend countless hours tuning smaller nozzles to optimize the setup even more.

If you need giant nozzles, then great! Run them. The point was that not everyone needs giant nozzles and it is a good idea to educate the masses to limit hassle/issues/unhappy customers.



If anyone was curious... the scenario I pointed out is a TRUE STORY from a customer. Seriously! I actually deal with simialr scenarios all the time... as I am sure many other shops do also. Which might have been the whole point of this thread.

Doesn't matter if it's modified or stock.

You aren't towing a really heavy trailer/5th wheel/whatever up a 7% grade at 1800 rpms. 12K lbs, 15-20K lbs (those are numbers YOU threw out for towing 7% grades), you claimed could be done with smaller nozzles, but impossible with larger ones.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you're wrong. The truck either won't have enough power at 1800 rpm's to maintain speed, so it will require a downshift or will continue to slow down. Or if the truck does have enough power, then regardless of the injectors the EGT's will rise too high. Small nozzles, big nozzles... doesn't matter. EGT's will be too high at 1800 RPM towing that kind of grade with that kind of weight. Period.

 

[TyCorr]

I think it is great that you have such great luck. I also think it is great that you don't brag about it. I wish everyone understood like you do. BUT THEY DON'T

And whenever someone posts up the benefits of smaller nozzles and why they have big advatages, you get 2 or 3 guys that say "I tow with 250/200s with no problems". Then the debate starts, then some poor SAP wants to tow with 250/200s and s468 and ends up having problems. That "seat time" or "hours of tuning" is usually done for free by some shop that eats all that time/money/effort because someone read on the internet that 250/200 "runs better than any other injector".

Most tuners should have the full spectrum of tunes written for those combos by now. Php sent me stock to race 3 years ago. Similar tunes to which made 600hp on another guys truck. I just got dynoproven tunes and zero issues. Well my trans is dying LOL

 

[KCTurbos]

Doesn't matter if it's modified or stock.

You aren't towing a really heavy trailer/5th wheel/whatever up a 7% grade at 1800 rpms. 12K lbs, 15-20K lbs (those are numbers YOU threw out for towing 7% grades), you claimed could be done with smaller nozzles, but impossible with larger ones.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you're wrong. The truck either won't have enough power at 1800 rpm's to maintain speed, so it will require a downshift or will continue to slow down. Or if the truck does have enough power, then regardless of the injectors the EGT's will rise too high. Small nozzles, big nozzles... doesn't matter. EGT's will be too high at 1800 RPM towing that kind of grade with that kind of weight. Period.

Where did I say that guys with smaller nozzles are doing that?

My point was that guys are trying to do that. Bigger turbos/nozzles are not helping that.