external waste gate setup on 6.0

[Dieselmore]

OK gotcha, yeah the heaviest spring they offer on most of these gates, was like 20lb spring.

 

[4.0l sahara]

Because I'm controlling the amount of drive pressure I have...not boost.

I use on board air because it's an endless, and constant supply...never have to worry about how much pressure is in the bottle, etc, etc.

I got tired of trying this spring, and that spring...

Now I just type in what I want to see, and it happens with a simple touch of a couple buttons.

So your pressure sensor is reading ebp? I have my ams1000 set up reading the pressure on the top of the gate and that is what the controller is trying to maintain. The bottom of the gate is just fed manifold boost. And mine is set up using boost by gear going off tps voltage. I'm wondering if there is a better way to do it. I also have a very light spring and c02 to run it.

 

[4.0l sahara]

So you have it holding the gate shut till it is seeing 80 psi then it will bleed gate pressure to maintain that max of 80 psi? What setting on the controller are you using?

 

[KCTurbos]

That's missing a critical piece of information though.. Was the gate able to relieve enough drive pressure by itself or was he still seeing dangerous drive pressure numbers that twin gates solved?

If that single gate wasn't enough then it makes sense that drive pressure would skyrocket on the bank without a gate.

Drive pressure was monitored and always kept under control. I think he had his gate set to dump at around 70psi of drive pressure. He also monitored drive pressure to make sure it stayed in check.

Granted... this is all hearsay because it is not my personal setup. I am simply passing along info.

 

[KCTurbos]

Why would you use drive pressure to control the gate instead of boost?

There is "nothing wrong" with just using boost to control the gate except it limits your abilities to control your setup and it makes it much harder to fine tune.

If you are simply using boost + spring pressure then you are limited to a boost:ebp ratio and in some cases your gate might dump earlier than desired. For example with a 20 psi spring your gate will start to crack open at around 10-12psi and fully open by 20psi. For anyone who monitors EBP and running compounds, vgt turbo, or a smaller non-vgt turbo setup then that is really easy to do when you jump on the throttle hard. It only last for a split second and they usually equalize quickly.

For example for a split second when you hit the throttle hard you might see 5psi boost and 25psi ebp... and your gate will be fully open while you are spooling the turbo.

Another example is what if you are pushing the truck hard down the track and are using nitrous... you are limited to a 20psi spring. That means that the gate will dump when ebp gets 10-20psi higher than boost. You are not able to "control" exactly when boost/ebp will dump. You are limited to a ratio. Changing out the springs can be a Pain... and the highest you can go is about a 20-25psi spring.

Also with the gate "cracking" open at about 1/2 the spring seat pressure and full open at the full spring pressure... it makes it hard to dial in the setup exactly.



Using drive pressure or constant supply of air/co2 you can control EXACTLY when the gate dumps. If you are using a boost controller plumbed into the wastegate with a small spring then it is SUPER easy to dial in the setup exactly how you want it. Your boost/ebp ratio does not matter anymore. You simply turn your boost/ebp up or down using your boost controller.

Your gate will never dump early while spooling the turbo down low when your boost/ebp ratio might get high for a split second. Also you are not limited to any sort or ebp/boost ratio at WOT. You can literally dial in your drive pressure to whatever number you want.

 

[Six_Sloww]

All of the above are certainly possible.. And I think I have one of those examples you spoke of (very quick spooling vgt) but I'm not experiencing those issues. My 6.7 with dual stroker pumps, injectors that flow more than a 400cc 6.0 injector and a 66mm vgt turbo, I have never had an issue keeping the gate closed. I don't think there's a 6.0 that spools faster than this and the gate doesn't burp on me.

With that said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. CO2 and an electronic boost controller is the ultimate in control, I just don't think it's necessary for dieselmore is trying to accomplish.

If it's in the budget, go for it.

 

[Fast-6.0]

In a drag only setup that has CO2 for other uses I would for sure use it to control the Wastegates. I have never had an issue where I couldn't control my gates with boost.

 

[Fast-6.0]

Even if you reduce drive on only one bank the pressure equalizes in the turbo, it's actually really effective.

I have seen a scenario where I used that same thought process and I couldn't have been more wrong.

Setup had a divided turbine housing and only one side was gated. We had bp gated down to 70 psi. We thought everything was great, til the engine failed. After repair we put a BP gauge on both pipes trying to see why we killed the last engine. 70 psi on the gated pipe and 120 psi on the non-gated pipe.

If using a divided housing you must gate both pipes somehow, it doesn't happen in the turbine housing, at least not enough to count on it. Either you use two gates or you divide the pipes all the way to the wastegate seat. Charlie Keeter's experience mirrors mine.

 

[Dieselmore]

I have seen a scenario where I used that same thought process and I couldn't have been more wrong.

Setup had a divided turbine housing and only one side was gated. We had bp gated down to 70 psi. We thought everything was great, til the engine failed. After repair we put a BP gauge on both pipes trying to see why we killed the last engine. 70 psi on the gated pipe and 120 psi on the non-gated pipe.

If using a divided housing you must gate both pipes somehow, it doesn't happen in the turbine housing, at least not enough to count on it. Either you use two gates or you divide the pipes all the way to the wastegate seat. Charlie Keeter's experience mirrors mine.

This is what kind of worried me. Charlie from KC was actually telling me about Charlie Keeter's failure with only gating one side, and the non gated side blew all the exhaust valves apart. With a true divided system, to me it would seem hard relying one gating on one side of it. This is a street truck, and I wouldnt have a CO2 system for anything else, so using boost reference would be much easier and a more affordable path to do it

 

[Dieselmore]

Problem is on a 6.0, there's not a lot of room for a wastegate on both banks. Only good way I can think of doing it right off the exhaust manifolds and dumps to the ground

 

[UpstateDieselGuy]

If using the factory up pipes, could the EGR connection be used?

 

[KCTurbos]

All of the above are certainly possible.. And I think I have one of those examples you spoke of (very quick spooling vgt) but I'm not experiencing those issues. My 6.7 with dual stroker pumps, injectors that flow more than a 400cc 6.0 injector and a 66mm vgt turbo, I have never had an issue keeping the gate closed. I don't think there's a 6.0 that spools faster than this and the gate doesn't burp on me.

With that said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. CO2 and an electronic boost controller is the ultimate in control, I just don't think it's necessary for dieselmore is trying to accomplish.

If it's in the budget, go for it.

I was not pushing anyone towards using co2 or drive pressure... I was just explaining the advantages.

I have never ran a 6.7 so I don't know much about the vane tuning/exhaust flow... but on my 6.0 while daily driving I could get my wastegate to open up all the time. I kept adding heavier springs and then gave up on using boost. I only wanted the gate to open on a hard WOT pull... not while trying to spool the turbo. It was just gated on the drivers side manifold pointed down at the ground so it was easy to hear.


Then I started to really monitor ebp:boost... it was way easier than I thought to have EBP 20psi higher than boost. Maybe only for a split second but it happens.


I am sure with a big single non-vgt it will be much less of an issue... but I still think having more control of the gates has its advantages, especially if anyone is running vgt or compounds.

 

[Dieselmore]

If using the factory up pipes, could the EGR connection be used?

Yes when using factory or factory style up-pipes this will work perfect. However if you are running a true divided t4 up-pipe putting a waste gate on the passenger side portion would only gate the right bank (well depends on what theory you go off of). Honestly the only way to tell that would be to install an ebp Guage on both banks and see the drive pressure on each one...

 

[6 L chevy eater]

ive never had a problem with gates opening up before desired boost, i feel a good quality gate, correct spring combo, and having a properly set up non regulated & regulated boost to the gates is key, amd is all u need and very effective

 

[Extended Power]

Problem is on a 6.0, there's not a lot of room for a wastegate on both banks. Only good way I can think of doing it right off the exhaust manifolds and dumps to the ground

I have both sides into one gate on my setup.
It's tight...but very do-able.

Having a gate that is 90* off from the flow path is a very very poor gate design, and won't do the job required. (Like Tadd mentioned.)

Think about it this way...how does a sand blaster setup work?
You stick a hose into a pail of sand, and the air blowing across the sand pick up line creates a vacuum...picking up the sand...
So tell me...how good is the waste gate that uses the egr port any different?

 

[Dieselmore]

I have both sides into one gate on my setup.
It's tight...but very do-able.

Having a gate that is 90* off from the flow path is a very very poor gate design, and won't do the job required. (Like Tadd mentioned.)

Think about it this way...how does a sand blaster setup work?
You stick a hose into a pail of sand, and the air blowing across the sand pick up line creates a vacuum...picking up the sand...
So tell me...how good is the waste gate that uses the egr port any different?

Correct, 90 degrees is not optimal. I believe it's something like 30-45 degrees angle, which my thought was off the exhaust manifold/header could be an effective location to do so