Fuel system discussion

[22phantom]

Truck didn't make it very far. I was on my way home back to California and it only made it 472 Miles before the Dragon Fire pump failed and left me and my wife stranded in Sandy, Utah. Not very happy about it. This build has been a nightmare for me.

Anyone have any feedback on the Dragaon Fire pump good or bad. I don't know what i'm going to do now.

No Fun to say the least!

 

[Dzchey21]

Truck didn't make it very far. I was on my way home back to California and it only made it 472 Miles before the Dragon Fire pump failed and left me and my wife stranded in Sandy, Utah. Not very happy about it. This build has been a nightmare for me.

Anyone have any feedback on the Dragaon Fire pump good or bad. I don't know what i'm going to do now.

No Fun to say the least!

Sorry to hear your luck I was sad when mike told.me the news. You do have a Damn good looking truck hope whatever you decided to do with it works out for you.

 

[22phantom]

Not fun!

 

[22phantom]

Back at the tow yard.....

 

[22phantom]

Thanks! I have no idea what I'm going to do. Just feel really screwed right now.......

 

[Corb@CorbinShipping]

Damn, this sucks to hear. I heard a few bad things about the IIs, and opted for duals. A bit more pricey, but stories like this make me feel good about my decision.

Good luck getting her up and running again. And good luck dealing with II. Let us know how they treat you.....

 

[Heavyhaul]

Mine did the exact same thing. With almost the exact same mileage. II told me to bad. WOP is in Sandy I think did you take it there? Dual fuelers is the key unless your running a small nozzle you could get away with a modified stock pump set up.

 

[Charles]

What is industrial changing in the pump? And can it simply be reversed? Or at least the part that causes failure undone?

And what actually fails?

 

[Spatel23]

Truck didn't make it very far. I was on my way home back to California and it only made it 472 Miles before the Dragon Fire pump failed and left me and my wife stranded in Sandy, Utah. Not very happy about it. This build has been a nightmare for me.

Anyone have any feedback on the Dragaon Fire pump good or bad. I don't know what i'm going to do now.

No Fun to say the least!

Sorry to hear about your truck Edwin. I remember reading the PM you sent me a couple months ago. I know how you feel, but Im sure Haller will get you taken care of.
Look at the bright side, you finally know how awesome your setup really is since someone who knows what they are doing got their hands on it. Switch to dual pumps and you wont look back.
-Shone

What is industrial changing in the pump? And can it simply be reversed? Or at least the part that causes failure undone?

And what actually fails?

Those are very good questions!
I dont think anyone has publicly addressed what exactly happens.

 

[mike@haller's]

Mine did the exact same thing. With almost the exact same mileage. II told me to bad. WOP is in Sandy I think did you take it there? Dual fuelers is the key unless your running a small nozzle you could get away with a modified stock pump set up.

The truck is at our shop will. This is the truck we just did the tow power setup on. We put about 150 miles on it before edwin picked it up. Then got the call that he only made it to salt lake. So last weekend we hauled out to salt lake and picked it with a trailer and brought it back to our shop.

What is industrial changing in the pump? And can it simply be reversed? Or at least the part that causes failure undone?

And what actually fails?

I'm not actually sure what fails in it charles. Our shop has had really good luck with the pumps so far. This is the first one to fail coming out of our shop. I can't believe mals has gone 25k miles being pushed really hard, clausen has about the same mileage on his with no issue. But then this one only goes 500 miles. :banghead:

 

[22phantom]

Well, I had a modified Elite Pump. When I was putting the build together and purchased all the parts directly from Elite I was told by them that the modified pump was the way to go for my build and that I should have close to 700 HP and the modified pump will keep up all day long.

To make a very long frustrating story short. My truck ended up at Hallers Repair and when they tuned it properly it was only making 620 on the modified pump. As this time I was told I had the hardware to make more power. However, the fuel rail pressure is dropping because the pump can't keep up. It was suggested to me that I purchase a Dragon Fire to maintain fuel rail pressure. Jim called Tadd at Elite and they were nice enough to take back my modified pump and give me credit towards a Dragon Fire.

After several days of pondering the idea I decided to just go for it. So, I called Jim and gave him the green light based on his recommendation. It was a tough decision for me because I was already so far over budget.

Elite shipped Jim the pump, they installed it and we made 681. They drove the truck around for a week just to make sure everything was working well and then I flew out to Denver with my Wife, rented a one way car, drove it to Wyoming and picked up my truck.

Seems to me with all the problems out there with the Dragon Fire that installing the duels should have been an option for me. However, at the time I wasn't aware of the duels and nobody brought it to my attention until after the failure.

The worst part is that after reviewing the paperwork it appears that if I would have done the duels instead of Dragon Fire in the first place it would have only cost me about an additional $1,000.00. However, now my truck sits broken down in Wyoming with a $ 6,900.00 estimate for installing the duel pump set up. To make matters worse I lost my original modified pump that I could have ran with the duel set up when I took the advise to trade it in on a Dragon Fire. Consiquently costing me the money to purchase a new ford pump and the labor to replace it with the Dragon Fire that failed. This is all before installing the Duel Pump set up I obviously should have done from the begining.

Elite has stepped up to the plate and offered to replace the Dragon Fire. For that I am thankful. However, I'm now told by Jim Haller that the Dragon Fire pumps are not staying together and they can possibly granade the entire fuel system (injectors, sensors and fuel rails) Personaly, I don't want a ticking time bomb and wish this would have been brought to my attention before making the expensive decision of going with the Dragon Fire based on the advise I was given.

This entire experiance has been a nightmare and there's no end in sight.

 

[Charles]

Well, I had a modified Elite Pump. When I was putting the build together and purchased all the parts directly from Elite I was told by them that the modified pump was the way to go for my build and that I should have close to 700 HP and the modified pump will keep up all day long.

To make a very long frustrating story short. My truck ended up at Hallers Repair and when they tuned it properly it was only making 620 on the modified pump. As this time I was told I had the hardware to make more power. However, the fuel rail pressure is dropping because the pump can't keep up. It was suggested to me that I purchase a Dragon Fire to maintain fuel rail pressure. Jim called Tadd at Elite and they were nice enough to take back my modified pump and give me credit towards a Dragon Fire.

After several days of pondering the idea I decided to just go for it. So, I called Jim and gave him the green light based on his recommendation. It was a tough decision for me because I was already so far over budget.

Elite shipped Jim the pump, they installed it and we made 681. They drove the truck around for a week just to make sure everything was working well and then I flew out to Denver with my Wife, rented a one way car, drove it to Wyoming and picked up my truck.

Seems to me with all the problems out there with the Dragon Fire that installing the duels should have been an option for me. However, at the time I wasn't aware of the duels and nobody brought it to my attention until after the failure.

The worst part is that after reviewing the paperwork it appears that if I would have done the duels instead of Dragon Fire in the first place it would have only cost me about an additional $1,000.00. However, now my truck sits broken down in Wyoming with a $ 6,900.00 estimate for installing the duel pump set up. To make matters worse I lost my original modified pump that I could have ran with the duel set up when I took the advise to trade it in on a Dragon Fire. Consiquently costing me the money to purchase a new ford pump and the labor to replace it with the Dragon Fire that failed. This is all before installing the Duel Pump set up I obviously should have done from the begining.

Elite has stepped up to the plate and offered to replace the Dragon Fire. For that I am thankful. However, I'm now told by Jim Haller that the Dragon Fire pumps are not staying together and they can possibly granade the entire fuel system (injectors, sensors and fuel rails) Personaly, I don't want a ticking time bomb and wish this would have been brought to my attention before making the expensive decision of going with the Dragon Fire based on the advise I was given.

This entire experiance has been a nightmare and there's no end in sight.

So who's going to take a dragonfire apart and figure out how to un*** one?

I just wonder if it's like a crank offset grind, or bore or what that is being changed. It may not be worth the trouble to undo.

 

[mike@haller's]

The main reason the dual pumps were not offered was tadd was completely out of stock on the twin pumps from his black friday sale and it was looking to be a minimum of 30 days to even get parts. Plus as you said you were over your planned budget, and timeline for the getting the truck back. And the industrial pump is alot cheaper than twin pumps. . Tadd said he had an industrial pump in stock so thats why we offered that. And up until this point we have had nothing but good luck with the Industrial pumps in Mals and Eriks trucks both having over 20k miles on them. But with the failure of yours and a few other failures at the same time, it does make me quite nervous to put another one in your truck when you have such a long drive home. Tadd offered to warranty your industrial for us even though its not his product to warranty or give you credit towards dual fuelers. I thought that was pretty gracious of him. Your modified elite pump would of had to be swapped out anyhow for the dual fuelers as well, being as modded pumps don't play well together in a twin setup.

 

[Heavyhaul]

The truck is at our shop will. This is the truck we just did the tow power setup on. We put about 150 miles on it before edwin picked it up. Then got the call that he only made it to salt lake. So last weekend we hauled out to salt lake and picked it with a trailer and brought it back to our shop.

Now that is customer service! No better place to be. Except for the wind. Hallers may not sell their own custom parts but their innovation on tuning and repairs is what has them on the map in my option. I didnt put the two together but i did read no more II at your shop. Best of luck gentleman.

 

[Erikclaw]

Heard about this whole fiasco this past weekend. I think the reason Mal and I have had success with these things is that they were brand new pumps not remans. Been hearing of a couple that imploded at Aaron's idling in the parking lot. I don't know how II can market these things and refuse every claim that comes in. Makes me sick, I am really considering dual pumps cause I could see mine taking out the fuel system the way my luck goes some times.

 

[Corb@CorbinShipping]

Heard about this whole fiasco this past weekend. I think the reason Mal and I have had success with these things is that they were brand new pumps not remans. Been hearing of a couple that imploded at Aaron's idling in the parking lot. I don't know how II can market these things and refuse every claim that comes in. Makes me sick, I am really considering dual pumps cause I could see mine taking out the fuel system the way my luck goes some times.

DO IT!!!! LOL

 

[78f100]

Elite 60hp nozzles with stock hpfp (109k miles) airdog and elite airdog upgrade. Rp is 18k at wot on kem345 1.92pw.

I am trying to figure out which way to go, Mike at kem says I may be leaving as much as 50hp on the table with the low rp. I have been trying to make sure I have everything adjusted right before I go replacing my hpfp. I was told by Elite, to max out the airdog reg and the elite reg but I get a hpfp surge, I can turn the airdog reg down to 13 to 14 psi with no surge. I have studied the fuel system and found that stock fuel pressure to the hpfp is 3psi from the manual...

• The fuel pressure regulator is located inside the
engine mounted fuel filter housing in the standpipe.
• It regulates fuel pressure by routing unfiltered
fuel from the filter housing to the HFCM via
a spring loaded poppet style valve.
• The cracking pressure (pressure at which the valve
begins to open) of the valve is 2psi +\- 0.5psi. Actual
fuel pressure may be above or below this specification.
• The regulated pressure of the valve is
3psi+/- 0.5psi. Actual fuel pressure may
be above or below this specification.
NOTE: The fuel pressure regulator is NOT serviceable
separate from the housing! If the regulator needs to be
replaced, then the entire housing must be replaced.

Why do I need the ad pressure up so high? The more I turn the pressure up the louder the airdog and the hpfp get, just seems like the ad is working too hard to keep higher pressure up.
I am curious If I can run less pressure but maybe more volume to the hpfp by turning the airdog down more, also what should the pressure be at the elite regulator? I just want to make sure I dont go buy a new hpfp if I dont need one.

 

[Beans71086]

Elite 60hp nozzles with stock hpfp (109k miles) airdog and elite airdog upgrade. Rp is 18k at wot on kem345 1.92pw.

I am trying to figure out which way to go, Mike at kem says I may be leaving as much as 50hp on the table with the low rp. I have been trying to make sure I have everything adjusted right before I go replacing my hpfp. I was told by Elite, to max out the airdog reg and the elite reg but I get a hpfp surge, I can turn the airdog reg down to 13 to 14 psi with no surge. I have studied the fuel system and found that stock fuel pressure to the hpfp is 3psi from the manual...

• The fuel pressure regulator is located inside the
engine mounted fuel filter housing in the standpipe.
• It regulates fuel pressure by routing unfiltered
fuel from the filter housing to the HFCM via
a spring loaded poppet style valve.
• The cracking pressure (pressure at which the valve
begins to open) of the valve is 2psi +\- 0.5psi. Actual
fuel pressure may be above or below this specification.
• The regulated pressure of the valve is
3psi+/- 0.5psi. Actual fuel pressure may
be above or below this specification.
NOTE: The fuel pressure regulator is NOT serviceable
separate from the housing! If the regulator needs to be
replaced, then the entire housing must be replaced.

Why do I need the ad pressure up so high? The more I turn the pressure up the louder the airdog and the hpfp get, just seems like the ad is working too hard to keep higher pressure up.
I am curious If I can run less pressure but maybe more volume to the hpfp by turning the airdog down more, also what should the pressure be at the elite regulator? I just want to make sure I dont go buy a new hpfp if I dont need one.

So I guess the question to all you experienced ppl out there is, what's the biggest nozzle/tune(pulse width wise) you can run with a stock hpfp that is properly supplied with fuel? This is a question I've been pondering myself as we are getting stuff together to stud my truck.

 

[NathannialD]

Have you guys watched lift pump pressure during a hard run? Just a though, my smaller pump wouldn't maintain, moved up to a 200 and now it at least maintains a few psi during a full power pass. Something to consider.

 

[78f100]

Have you guys watched lift pump pressure during a hard run? Just a though, my smaller pump wouldn't maintain, moved up to a 200 and now it at least maintains a few psi during a full power pass. Something to consider.

No I haven't, I need to rig something up so I can see what the airdog will actually maintain at wot. I don't mind buying a hpfp if I need one, just want to make sure I actually need one. I was just thinking out loud, wondering what feed pressure to the hpfp really needs to be and what return pressure should be. I just read the manual again looks like the factory hfcm's regulator is set at 24 psi to the fuel bowl, and 3psi return from the bowl back to the hfcm. It was really late last night when I read it the first time, so it didnt sink in...lol.
It looks like to me by having the elite reg at the fuel block maxed out I am returning a large portion of fuel back to my tank right? Which is starving my hpfp at wot.

This is the post I got my regulator setup info from, posted by Wayne, I know he makes a living doing this stuff and I am not questioning his skills, he has gave me lots of good info. I may be looking at it wrong but it doesn't make sense to me to max out the reg at the fuel block.

" hopefully this helps. when the airdog is installed, you pretty much need to max out the regulator on the airdog base, then nearly max out the aeromotive regulator. optimum desired Elite spec. PSI is 15 at the aeromotive regulator pressure test port. The airdog might not quite produce it."