H&S Kit lag?

[DC87]

Hey guys I have had the H&S 64 kit on my truck for about 10k miles now and I love it. I normally roll into WOT if I get on it. Today I was taking it to the shop I use to get my no limit intercooler and mishimoto radiator put on and took my mechanic for a ride. I had never gotten on it straight WOT I did from about a 10mph roll and oh my the lag literally was about 4-5 seconds of barely accelerating and an immense amount of smoke before the charger lit. Is this normal lag? I know I don't have any more fuel besides stock currently. I'm hoping the intercooler helps I was just surprised by it today. I mostly just drive normal so hadn't noticed it until now. Maybe just need a tune revision? I have noticed if I'm pulling into a gas station or somewhere and am rolling when I try to lightly accelerate it jumps. And if I roll into it and let out sometimes it take 2-3 seconds for it to decelerate(could that just be rail pressure taking a second to come down?) just fishing to see if I need to get a tuning revision? Thanks guys

Leveld
20x12
H&S 64 kit
******d
No limit intake
Ccv reroute
4" flo pro
H&S mini with Midwest tuning

 

[Codydiesel]

If you go wot from a dead stop or slow roll it will do that every time. Non vgts you have to roll into the throttle and not just go straight to wot. When you go wot from a dead stop and blowing more smoke then a oil refinery all you are doing is stalling out the turbo. It can't handle all that fuel being delivered as such low rpm so it stalls out till the engine picks up rpm and can over come all the fuel. As far as the decel issue its just part of the base ford engine tune, haven't seen anyone be able to change that issue your having.

 

[dsmracing1]

H&S Kit lag?

Yep, part of the characteristics of a non VGT with low rpm and throttle response. That was a big part of why I went with an aftermarket VGT turbo since I tow a lot and they are happier at lower rpm.

Wouldn't the decelerate be related to it just being non VGT? I used to have an 06 5.9 cummins and if you got on the throttle and then had to suddenly stop it would want to keep going right into the vehicle in front of you for a few seconds haha.

 

[maxxedout]

The gradual deceleration feeling is pretty normal in my opinion. If I get on the throttle hard then let off, the rpm's don't just drop immediately. It feels similar to engine braking but not as strong. There is no just "snapping the throttle"; it takes a little while to come up and a little while to come back down. That's just what I've noticed, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[Jacob @ No Limit]

S p a r t a n has a snappy throttle, on and off. I love it!

 

[maxxedout]

S p a r t a n has a snappy throttle, on and off. I love it!

Yeah lol, so I've heard. I'm starting to wonder if MCC and the Mini Maxx are basically obsolete with the new tuning options coming to the market. I was hoping not to spend any more money on the truck until I make a solid decision as to what my goals are for it, but that may be unavoidable haha.

Back to the OP's topic, I'd say the lag if you flat foot it off the line is pretty normal. My truck takes off way faster if I gradually accelerate at first and then get on it hard. I think that's the name of the game with any late model diesel, at least any one that I've driven. In theory, a VGT should out-spool a non-VGT, but 0% to 100% throttle off the line is going to feel laggy and gradual regardless of the turbo.

 

[Six_Sloww]

Yeah lol, so I've heard. I'm starting to wonder if MCC and the Mini Maxx are basically obsolete with the new tuning options coming to the market. I was hoping not to spend any more money on the truck until I make a solid decision as to what my goals are for it, but that may be unavoidable haha.



Back to the OP's topic, I'd say the lag if you flat foot it off the line is pretty normal. My truck takes off way faster if I gradually accelerate at first and then get on it hard. I think that's the name of the game with any late model diesel, at least any one that I've driven. In theory, a VGT should out-spool a non-VGT, but 0% to 100% throttle off the line is going to feel laggy and gradual regardless of the turbo.

Nothing wrong with MCC; there is some inherent lag with a non-VGT even though the Internet says otherwise.

If you want to get it from a dead stop just spool a little on the brakes, although if you aren't in 4x4 that will just turn into white smoke pretty quick.

 

[DC87]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I haven't had a non vgt setup since 08 so probably just me forgetting the feeling. I get the turbo stalling I think I was at 10-15 so I just didn't think it would be as bad even from a low roll! Naturally I assumed that the decel was rail pressure related. My 5.9 Cummins had it but not as bad. I guess I just got nervous since my rads been leaking my mind naturally went into oh $hit everythings wrong now mode lol. I have been hearing about a lot of new tuning options but as of now love the H&S and Midwest tuning. Is that the going thought that mcc will soon be obsolete?

 

[DC87]

Hopefully the intercooler really does help some with the lag!

 

[Six_Sloww]

H&S Kit lag?

Intercooler won't do anything besides drop IAT some. It's more efficient but not to the point where it will make a big difference on spool up.

If the lag really is that bad make sure you check all connections intake and exhaust side for any leaks.

Not sure what you mean by obsolete? If you like the tune then there's no reason to switch. If every thing checks out good and you have smoke control issues you can have a little fuel pulled down low, but that isn't going to help spool up unless the truck is choking on fuel.

 

[DC87]

Intercooler won't do anything besides drop IAT some. It's more efficient but not to the point where it will make a big difference on spool up.

If the lag really is that bad make sure you check all connections intake and exhaust side for any leaks.

Not sure what you mean by obsolete? If you like the tune then there's no reason to switch. If every thing checks out good and you have smoke control issues you can have a little fuel pulled down low, but that isn't going to help spool up unless the truck is choking on fuel.

Thanks for the info. I have an oil leak small assuming the oil drain line as its pooling up over time there and H&S and Mike were kind enough to send me a new kit for it so all the pipes will be off and put back on so if there was a bad fit somewhere hopefully it's addressed during everything being put back on. I do love the tune just see posts on here about mcc being outdated soon with new options coming out I should have clarified better I was more asking if there are better options that will soon make mcc kind of a thing of the past? Once I get the truck back Sunday I'll post a vid and you can tell me if I'm being too picky and dumb! Thanks for the responses and info six_sloww

 

[sootie]

Thanks for the info. I have an oil leak small assuming the oil drain line as its pooling up over time there and H&S and Mike were kind enough to send me a new kit for it so all the pipes will be off and put back on so if there was a bad fit somewhere hopefully it's addressed during everything being put back on. I do love the tune just see posts on here about mcc being outdated soon with new options coming out I should have clarified better I was more asking if there are better options that will soon make mcc kind of a thing of the past? Once I get the truck back Sunday I'll post a vid and you can tell me if I'm being too picky and dumb! Thanks for the responses and info six_sloww

why would mcc become outdated? it has all the parameters open you will ever need-its getting a tuner that understands you and your truck and can put a tune together you are happy with. Part of the reason spar tan is becoming so popular is that mcc only goes up to 14 and there are a lot of new trucks purchased every day!

 

[SpartanDieselTech]

it has all the parameters open you will ever need

This is where common opinion and reality differ. In truth, no, it doesn't, and neither does Advantage.

There are so very many parameters buried in the 6.7 ECM that are not in MCC or Advantage. For example, let's take a 2013 strategy, let's say for DC3A-14C204-AHH. Commonly used calibration. There are 31,304 parameters in the Ford A2L calibration definition. Thus includes scalars, arrays (1-d), curves (2-d) and maps (3-d).

Go count what's listed in MCC or Advantage. You have 5% of the total file, if you are lucky. Sure, it includes the meat of it, but let's be honest here, it barely scratches the surface of what's truly editable.

End user software never has been, and never will be, what is used to push innovation in this industry. It's for tweaking, not tuning.

 

[DC87]

why would mcc become outdated? it has all the parameters open you will ever need-its getting a tuner that understands you and your truck and can put a tune together you are happy with. Part of the reason spar tan is becoming so popular is that mcc only goes up to 14 and there are a lot of new trucks purchased every day!

I have no idea why it would lol just had been getting confused by be comments I have seen and was looking for clarification on the issue. I had no clue that mcc stops at the 14 mark! Thanks for the clarification on that I love midwests tuning and to be fair just noticed the issue so if it is by any means anything tuning related I have never mentioned it to them nor asked for a revision. I initially told Morgan when I spoke with him that I wanted the tunes dialed back from the average ones they would normally do. So that could be my issue I failed to mention that previously. I was uneducated on the rod issues and had only heard that the 6.7 rods were weak and after buying the truck and all the parts cash I was nervous to have anything happen. Then after talking to Jared he explained that the issues were from tuners fueling the trucks super hard down low I now feel way better about it. So I'll see how it runs when I get it back and maybe call and spend the cash on a revision to see if that helps! Thanks guys :rockon:

 

[DC87]

I wonder if I called could they access the tune file and see if they did scale it back a bit?

 

[SpartanDieselTech]

The gradual deceleration feeling is pretty normal in my opinion. If I get on the throttle hard then let off, the rpm's don't just drop immediately. It feels similar to engine braking but not as strong. There is no just "snapping the throttle"; it takes a little while to come up and a little while to come back down. That's just what I've noticed, so take it for what it's worth.

There are two forms of "lag" in these trucks. #1 is transient pedal response. This is what we remove with our Quick Response calibrations. #2 is actual compressor lag with the turbo.

#1 accounts for about 40% of the total throttle hesitation on a VGT truck, and about 25% on a non-VGT truck.

 

[DC87]

There are two forms of "lag" in these trucks. #1 is transient pedal response. This is what we remove with our Quick Response calibrations. #2 is actual compressor lag with the turbo.

#1 accounts for about 40% of the total throttle hesitation on a VGT truck, and about 25% on a non-VGT truck.

So essentially if I were to get a tuning revision it should clean up a bit of the jump that the pedal currently has? I've heard but good things about your 6.7 tuning. Hopefully I can get it cleaned up a bit with a revision bc other than that little issue I love the tuning.

 

[sootie]

This is where common opinion and reality differ. In truth, no, it doesn't, and neither does Advantage.

There are so very many parameters buried in the 6.7 ECM that are not in MCC or Advantage. For example, let's take a 2013 strategy, let's say for DC3A-14C204-AHH. Commonly used calibration. There are 31,304 parameters in the Ford A2L calibration definition. Thus includes scalars, arrays (1-d), curves (2-d) and maps (3-d).

Go count what's listed in MCC or Advantage. You have 5% of the total file, if you are lucky. Sure, it includes the meat of it, but let's be honest here, it barely scratches the surface of what's truly editable.

End user software never has been, and never will be, what is used to push innovation in this industry. It's for tweaking, not tuning.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[HS-MotorsportsDallas]

From a dead stop or slowly moving, you will almost always see some sort of delay regardless of the turbo. There's a period of time that it takes to start building rail pressure which is relatively low in those conditions.

 

[DC87]

From a dead stop or slowly moving, you will almost always see some sort of delay regardless of the turbo. There's a period of time that it takes to start building rail pressure which is relatively low in those conditions.

I'm tracking that and I understand the truck will not be a jet from a stop or low roll I was just surprised at the extent of time it took that one time. I have heard those turbos spool really well and have never had an issue with mine it just happened the one time I wot it from a low roll. Just wanted to make sure that's a consistent thing and again I'm hoping it's the reserved tuning I requested that contributed to the extended length of it. Thanks everyone for the responses definitely going to get a revision for some other stuff and see if I see a difference!