HOT!! 4r100

[Bulletproof7.3]

This is my truck and what the coolers look like in front. The one that i got with my built trans is on the left and the bigger heavy duty one is on the right.

I mounted them in front thinking that the cleanest coolest air would be right there. Might look like **** up close but really cant see either from a few steps back unless your just flat out lookin for em.

So like i asked before will the radiator help these at all or no ? These two have to be doing something.


:doh:

 

[Tom S]

I think the radiator cooler will help in the low airflow situations.

If you are not happy with the look of that one on the left some black spray paint would go a long ways to making it blend in.

The cooler on the right looks like decent one if the core not real thin.

 

[Bulletproof7.3]

yeah i had both of those thoughts go through my head. Didnt know how much the paint would do to it or whether or not it would stick well. It does look small but considering how close i am in the picture and how big my grill is, the coolers are decent size.

Forgot to add, thank you guys for all of your input and ideas. This had helped me a lot! i know its hard not actually being able to have your hands on the truck but i sure have learned a lot from this situation.

I can see this site being just like the nation very quickly. A lot of good guys helping others.

 

[Bulletproof7.3]

I give up... its 85 at night here right now drove 15 miles tops. sat in a parking lot for 5-10 minutes running and when i got back home which i had to take the highway so it was getting plenty of air to the coolers. Temp on my gauge said 190*. Im taking it back to the transmission guy who built it tomorrow.

I just honestly dont think it should be getting that hot that quick. Especially without a load. There has to be something else wrong with it besides the coolers.

 

[Tree Trimmer]

Makes better sense because my fluid was getting hottest when i was driving slow or stopped. this is normal, you have no air flow through the coolers

I ran around town today a lot of stop and go (no load). for about 20-25 mins and temps were right at 165-170 when i got home. Which i didnt think was to bad considering just having air cooled only.that is normal. as a rule of thumb, you figure 100* over the ambient temp outside is what your trans will run, normal driving

Based on my trucks performance with the 6.0 cooler, you don't need that radiator, so with the $ spent on that combined with the $ for the additional little cooler, you could get the 6.0 cooler for the same money and have all the cooling you need.

while thats true, he is doin what he has to, with what he can afford, cuz what he has is simply not enough for what he needs. doesnt change the fact that he needs a 6.0 cooler when he can afford it, hauling the loads he is.

i have a E99 f250 automatic, 3.73 rear end, no cooling through the radiator. when i had the stock cooler, i would get hot, like you have. towing round bales, 11 of them at about 1900/bale + a 3k trailer = way more than the truck should pull. 250-275* was real easy to get to real fast. you can get around that by not letting it shift. when driving through a field, keep it in first. when driving down the road, keep it a gear low and the rpms up. shifting is what is creating all your heat. that bein said, i have put the 6.0 cooler on it. same loads, same fields, same hot days, cannot break 220*, even letting it shift.

I give up... its 85 at night here right now drove 15 miles tops. sat in a parking lot for 5-10 minutes running and when i got back home which i had to take the highway so it was getting plenty of air to the coolers. Temp on my gauge said 190*. Im taking it back to the transmission guy who built it tomorrow.

I just honestly dont think it should be getting that hot that quick. Especially without a load. There has to be something else wrong with it besides the coolers.

again, that temp, that fast is maybe a tad fast, but i drive 15 miles to work, country driving, and im at 140* on a 65* morning. so your not as fast as you think.

now about your two coolers on it. i would prefer the one on the left over the one on the right. hd cooler or not, imo, i dont like it. when you look at your pics, the fins on the one on the right are farther apart, and thicker. yes, it lets more air through it, ill give you that. because the fins are thicker, it takes more air to cool them, and while more air will flow through that cooler, the ic behind it and the radiator behind that will limit any additional flow that one would have gotten. because you have less # of fins, you have less surface area of fin to dissipate heat. more/thinner fins is better than less/thicker fins.

and a suggestion. if you know a tranny guy, and are friends with one, if you go to a bone yard and get a ac condensor, you know that thing that your coolers are in front of in your pic, he can flush that thoroughly and you can use that as a tranny cooler. i did that as a "i wonder" moment to a truck at work that has never come off the trailer its hooked to. it works better than the 6.0 cooler on my truck. if you focused on your ac condensor, its HUGE, much bigger than the 6.0 cooler. the catch is, you really have to trust your tranny guy to flush the cooler. if there is any ac stuff left in there is will chit the trans right quick and in a hurry.

 

[NEVRNF]

Something to consider. When you run the trans fluid through the radiator you will be heating the fluid to match the coolant temp. In low speed operation there is little airflow to aid in cooling. I have 2 trucks, my early 99 and my Ex. The 99 has NO radiator cooler and just a 6.0. I have towed 20k with this setup and never had heat issues or saw temps over 165*. This truck runs 120* empty all summer long and in the winter unless i am plowing and the radiator is packed with snow it never gets hotter. this truck has a local rebuilt trans and a low budget converter.
The Ex has a BTS,6.0 and a radiator cooler. This trans has been in 2 truck over its life of 10 years and has always run close to radiator temp. The trans temp is always right around 200-220 in traffic in the summer. When Brian went through it 3 years ago there were NO signs of heat related wear after 7 years of use with these temps. Generally i agree with the 100* over outside rule.
I have tried running the Ex with and without the radiator cooler I still get the same temps in traffic But the temp will drop quicker without the radiator cooler once i get moving compared to with.

 

[Big Bore]

I've always been told the lines into the radiator were not for cooling, they are to get the trans fluid up to operating temp.

When you think about, some are saying when you are sitting in traffic you don't get any airflow, but the radiator behind the tranny cooler somehow is able to cool the fluid at this point? The air being drawn through the radiator by the fan has to go through the tranny cooler first so I don't see how plumbing through the raidator is going to aid in cooling at all when the same cooling source is being used on the tranny cooler first. Add to that, the radiator at this point is cycling a lot more coolant which raises it's temp.

 

[Tom S]

I will look for what Mark Kovalsky has written on the radiator cooler. I seem to think he wrote the radiator does not add heat to the trans fluid.

 

[Tom S]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cangim
20mph - heavy tow - incline, I don't think the OTW cooler would be as beneficial as a good fan.

The oil to water cooler would be MORE beneficial than a good fan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikkordead
Have you replaced the bypass valve?
That is the first thing to do if your tranny is overheating.

I disagree. The first thing to do is determine why it's overheating. The bypass valve is rarely the cause, but often one of the symptoms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow73bb
Resurrecting this old post. Still overheating every summer. I put a new fan clutch on this last winter, I replaced the bypass valve last summer, I put in the highest capacity tranny cooler I could fit. Today it went up to 230 pulling up a hill.

That's because none of those were the problem. The problem is that you need an oil to water cooler to cool the trans at low speeds. The air to oil is just not effective enough at slow speeds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow73bb
I'm thinking I'll have a radiator shop put in a OTW radiator.

Now you're talking!


Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow73bb
I had heard somewhere that a bad torque converter could cause the oil to overheat. Is there any truth to this? It locks just fine at highway speeds, so I'm not sure how it would fail.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your converter. Install an OTW in the radiator and I think you'll have this problem solved.
__________________
Mark

Former Ford automatic transmission engineer, 1988-2007.

 

[Tom S]

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokyred
I don't mean to try to shoot Mark's statement down, but the cooling system warms up faster than the trans fluid system. Would that not mean that in, say, the winter time the coolant helps warm the trans fluid up from a cold start?

Nope.

I've tested it as cold as -40, and the ATF was ALWAYS warmer than the engine coolant in the bottom of the radiator. Always. Without exception.

The cooler in the bottom of the radiator will always cool the ATF.

 

[Tom S]

now about your two coolers on it. i would prefer the one on the left over the one on the right. hd cooler or not, imo, i dont like it. when you look at your pics, the fins on the one on the right are farther apart, and thicker. yes, it lets more air through it, ill give you that. because the fins are thicker, it takes more air to cool them, and while more air will flow through that cooler, the ic behind it and the radiator behind that will limit any additional flow that one would have gotten. because you have less # of fins, you have less surface area of fin to dissipate heat. more/thinner fins is better than less/thicker fins.

The cooler on the left has fins that are attached to a larger tube to disapate heat. The cooler on the right flows fluid through the fins. I bet the one on the right has a way higher BTU rating.

 

[Big Bore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokyred
I don't mean to try to shoot Mark's statement down, but the cooling system warms up faster than the trans fluid system. Would that not mean that in, say, the winter time the coolant helps warm the trans fluid up from a cold start?

Nope.

I've tested it as cold as -40, and the ATF was ALWAYS warmer than the engine coolant in the bottom of the radiator. Always. Without exception.

The cooler in the bottom of the radiator will always cool the ATF.

Thats interesting. I've noticed in the winter my trans takes awhile to warm up enough to move the truck. I'm wondering if thats because of the deep sump pan.

 

[Tom S]

I sent Mark a message to see if he will join in this discussion.

 

[Bulletproof7.3]

well i had a separate cooler like the one on the left and i installed that one so both coolers are the same now. the one that should allow more air flow through the fins. It seems to run cooler with the way i have it now. right at 180 and it was 91* out here at the time. so i didnt think that was to bad considering that rule of thumb ive heard 80-100* over outside air temp.

I do think the otw cooler sounds good but also understand each side of the arguement.

We will see how it goes today, im towing my boat to the lake and it should be a decent little test i think. it is probably on 4-5k lbs.

 

[Bulletproof7.3]

ok going to plan b. temps were way to hot. Just going to get a bigger cooler. Ill let yall know how it goes and post pics later.

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

The transmission cooler is on the "cool" side of the radiator. That is the side that the coolant has already been cooled by the radiator. It isn't at the engine temperature, it is quite a bit cooler. Isn't that why the radiator is there in the first place? In winter the "cool" side of the radiator is often close to outside temperature, nowhere near engine temperature.

For three years of my 19 years at Ford I was a transmission cooling engineer. I measured all sorts of temperatures in these trucks in ambient temperatures from -40°F to +115°F. I never found a condition where the radiator cooler heated the transmission fluid.

People talk about how the radiator heats the trans in the winter. When I measured the coolant temperature inside the radiator at near the transmission cooler we had to drill the radiator to mount thermocouples inside. That way we could read the coolant temp around the cooler. We also measured the ATF temperature in and out of the cooler. The ATF and coolant started out at the same temperature because the truck sat in a cooler at -40°F overnight. Once it started driving the ATF slowly warmed up. The coolant near the trans cooler also warmed up, but stayed cooler than the ATF. Which was heating which?

Once the engine got hot enough to open the thermostat it only opened for a few seconds. We would see the "hot" side of the radiator temperature spike, but come down quickly. The "cold" side of the radiator never moved more than a couple degrees. The cold air hitting the radiator going down the road sucked all the heat out of the coolant before it got to the other side of the radiator.

Back to the original question. I think a big part of the heating problem is a lack of a radiator cooler AND the cooler that's on the passenger side of the truck is a tube and fin cooler. That's one tube that snakes back and forth. Those are only good for adding restriction to the cooling circuit. They are poor at cooling the ATF. Replace both of those coolers with a 6.0L cooler and you'll do MUCH better. Even better than that, use the 6.0L cooler after the radiator cooler. Then you'll have bulletproof cooling.

Mark
Former :fordoval: Automatic Transmission Engineer

 

[NEVRNF]

I have a question. Are aftermarket performance converters bigger heat generators compared to a stock? It seems like (at least in my case) that my BTS trans and all of the local friends that have one run much hotter than stock or closer to stock rebuilds.

 

[Tom S]

I have been told that has to do with the higher pump pressures. I also noticed that effect.

 

[Big Bore]

The transmission cooler is on the "cool" side of the radiator. That is the side that the coolant has already been cooled by the radiator. It isn't at the engine temperature, it is quite a bit cooler. Isn't that why the radiator is there in the first place? In winter the "cool" side of the radiator is often close to outside temperature, nowhere near engine temperature.

For three years of my 19 years at Ford I was a transmission cooling engineer. I measured all sorts of temperatures in these trucks in ambient temperatures from -40°F to +115°F. I never found a condition where the radiator cooler heated the transmission fluid.

People talk about how the radiator heats the trans in the winter. When I measured the coolant temperature inside the radiator at near the transmission cooler we had to drill the radiator to mount thermocouples inside. That way we could read the coolant temp around the cooler. We also measured the ATF temperature in and out of the cooler. The ATF and coolant started out at the same temperature because the truck sat in a cooler at -40°F overnight. Once it started driving the ATF slowly warmed up. The coolant near the trans cooler also warmed up, but stayed cooler than the ATF. Which was heating which?

Once the engine got hot enough to open the thermostat it only opened for a few seconds. We would see the "hot" side of the radiator temperature spike, but come down quickly. The "cold" side of the radiator never moved more than a couple degrees. The cold air hitting the radiator going down the road sucked all the heat out of the coolant before it got to the other side of the radiator.

Back to the original question. I think a big part of the heating problem is a lack of a radiator cooler AND the cooler that's on the passenger side of the truck is a tube and fin cooler. That's one tube that snakes back and forth. Those are only good for adding restriction to the cooling circuit. They are poor at cooling the ATF. Replace both of those coolers with a 6.0L cooler and you'll do MUCH better. Even better than that, use the 6.0L cooler after the radiator cooler. Then you'll have bulletproof cooling.

Mark
Former :fordoval: Automatic Transmission Engineer

Thanks Mark for the thorough explanation and information.

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

I have a question. Are aftermarket performance converters bigger heat generators compared to a stock? It seems like (at least in my case) that my BTS trans and all of the local friends that have one run much hotter than stock or closer to stock rebuilds.

It depends on the converter. Some generate more heat, some less. A higher stall converter will generate more heat than a lower stall converter.