injector builders

04cr450 · Sep 9, 2013

I agree^ and my first question was not asked still..... Who are the injector builders not doing the procedure correctly lately?

Fox hunt · Sep 9, 2013

Vizsla said:
Here is the answer - Buy your injectors from Rcd, Full Force, MPD, Elite, Warren, or Hypermax(not sure they still do them). Plenty of great options, anything else is a crapshoot.

After following this thread, I'm not convinced that's the correct answer. If they don't flow test them don't risk it- that's what I've come away with. Not saying if they don't they are bad, but considering RCD (possibly other companies, I just haven't looked yet) builds injectors competitively priced and in some cases cheaper than others who do not flow test it seems like a no brainer to me...

Breaking Habits · Sep 9, 2013

MorganY · Sep 9, 2013

Fox hunt said:
After following this thread, I'm not convinced that's the correct answer. If they don't flow test them don't risk it- that's what I've come away with. Not saying if they don't they are bad, but considering RCD (possibly other companies, I just haven't looked yet) builds injectors competitively priced and in some cases cheaper than others who do not flow test it seems like a no brainer to me...

That original post you quoted was edited. Refer back to post #159, the real answer

Vizsla · Sep 9, 2013

Younger1993 said:
That original post you quoted was edited. Refer back to post #159, the real answer

I thought it only fair to include Warren as an after thought due to customer service. I agree with you, but they obviously want to work towards being on that list.

motoxracer42 · Sep 10, 2013

04cr450 said:
Exactly.. I have no idea why certain people hear got so defensive... Im just stating what I have seen done in my fathers machine shop, how he does flow readings, makes nozzles, and stating what they cost and if jarrod thought about making there own that's all..... Im not stupid and take offense to that, I work hard, am a successful business owner, and Ive worked on quite of few powerstrokes and have proof of good running engines that ive worked on, and ive seen lots of injectors built first hand- again I am not an injector builder and don't want to me. Just saying what ive seen in the shop.... By the way- If ANYONE is going to the MPD dyno day- they are more than welcome to come see my fathers shop and see boxes of nozzles, etc etc- Its far from a freaking home backyard garage(as stated from a member a couple pages back) that's for sure.......... Anyways not trying to fight here, just glad someone here see what I was trying to say/ask..

04cr450 said:
I want to also add- Since this is a sensitive topic and sponsors do business here, I am not stating that injector builders rip people off for upgrading nozzles etc etc... This isn't a sales thread, or pushing to make your own nozzle, injector. I think that's why rcd or motox may have got frustrated thinking I was trying to push another way to get a nozzle etc? Not at all. And sorry If that's how you guys took that.

The average machine shop will not have the equipment to edm nozzles. Your father may have the equipment or may not but its not common. I am not mad at anyone lol aint nobody got time for that.
Honestly im just tired of seeing people getting taken advantage of and I felt like someone needed to get the point across. There are a lot of keyboard racers on here that read all day long and put together info from god knows where. Back to injectors lol here

Electrical discharge machining (EDM) is extensively used in the fine machining of complex forms and shapes in mold and die cutting, and fine hole drilling in injector cups, etc. The process can be used to machine fully-hardened metal components such as tool steel, which would not be possible using ordinary machining processes.

EDM is a thermal process which removes and re-deposits material on the object that is being machined. The area that is recast is usually much harder than the original surface with more resistance to abrasion and corrosion.

In the EDM process, there is an electrical discharge that is formed between the surface of the object and the finishing tool which can create temperatures of between 10,000 and 20,000 degrees centigrade. A dielectric field is formed that continuously removes and re-deposits material to the item's surface. Metal and elemental powders can also be introduced into this dielectric stream which will cause an alloy to be deposited.

That is why nozzles aren't very cheap. its also pretty time consuming to match flow a set of nozzles. your paying for labor as well as paying off that expensive machine and materials used. then there is extrude honing nozzles but that isn't all that common of a machine either. you can only get a 6.0 injector to about 75% over before its just too sloppy to get a good pintle seal. Basically all the builders, pay for the nozzles and there isn't much to be made. they aren't ripping anyone off. I only know of one injector builder in the industry with there own machine to eh nozzles. other than that they get sent off. I have played with a few sets but I am no expert by any means. I wont claim to be either. I am sorry if I came off as an a hole lol cause anyone that knows me personally knows I am far from one lol. I probably left stuff out but I have work to do. off to diagnose another 6.0. yay.

Fox hunt · Sep 10, 2013

Younger1993 said:
That original post you quoted was edited. Refer back to post #159, the real answer

Gotcha, didn't notice that it was edited. Thanks.

imelmo · Sep 10, 2013

I've got mine at Full Force right now being bumped up to 225's.

Then flowed to make sure they're doing what they should.

.

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Sep 10, 2013

Vizsla said:
Here is the answer - Buy your injectors from Rcd, Full Force, MPD, Elite, Warren, or Hypermax(not sure they still do them). Plenty of great options, anything else is a crapshoot.

Yes, short and simple. But really not the list of shops I would recommend. Most of them but some others not there.

Mdub707 · Sep 10, 2013

motoxracer42 said:
The average machine shop will not have the equipment to edm nozzles. Your father may have the equipment or may not but its not common. I am not mad at anyone lol aint nobody got time for that.
Honestly im just tired of seeing people getting taken advantage of and I felt like someone needed to get the point across. There are a lot of keyboard racers on here that read all day long and put together info from god knows where. Back to injectors lol here

Electrical discharge machining (EDM) is extensively used in the fine machining of complex forms and shapes in mold and die cutting, and fine hole drilling in injector cups, etc. The process can be used to machine fully-hardened metal components such as tool steel, which would not be possible using ordinary machining processes.

EDM is a thermal process which removes and re-deposits material on the object that is being machined. The area that is recast is usually much harder than the original surface with more resistance to abrasion and corrosion.

In the EDM process, there is an electrical discharge that is formed between the surface of the object and the finishing tool which can create temperatures of between 10,000 and 20,000 degrees centigrade. A dielectric field is formed that continuously removes and re-deposits material to the item's surface. Metal and elemental powders can also be introduced into this dielectric stream which will cause an alloy to be deposited.

That is why nozzles aren't very cheap. its also pretty time consuming to match flow a set of nozzles. your paying for labor as well as paying off that expensive machine and materials used. then there is extrude honing nozzles but that isn't all that common of a machine either. you can only get a 6.0 injector to about 75% over before its just too sloppy to get a good pintle seal. Basically all the builders, pay for the nozzles and there isn't much to be made. they aren't ripping anyone off. I only know of one injector builder in the industry with there own machine to eh nozzles. other than that they get sent off. I have played with a few sets but I am no expert by any means. I wont claim to be either. I am sorry if I came off as an a hole lol cause anyone that knows me personally knows I am far from one lol. I probably left stuff out but I have work to do. off to diagnose another 6.0. yay.

Weren't extrude honed nozzles common a few years back in the duramax crowd? I've heard it was hard to get them consistent with that process, which makes sense. Given those two choices, I'd be going EDM all day long.

Tim @ P.I.S. · Sep 10, 2013

Mdub707 said:
Weren't extrude honed nozzles common a few years back in the duramax crowd? I've heard it was hard to get them consistent with that process, which makes sense. Given those two choices, I'd be going EDM all day long.

Yes, at one time they were the rage.

They tend to work well in small amounts. They show problems when trying to use EH for Fast flowing nozzles.

The best process is both. EDM for the size and EH to balance and clean up the EDM process. This is what we have been using since 2006.

Extended Power · Sep 10, 2013

An issue I see now is...what if you get a set of injectors flow tested, and they come up short, or unmatched of the advertised flow?
Who is responsible for the correction?

What does it cost to flow, fix, and reflow a set of injectors?

bigrpowr · Sep 10, 2013

what i know about these process's, and the microscopic pics i have seen, the EDM has a rougher media that actually distrupt the spray helping to mist it more (for lamans terms) into the cylinder.

extrude hone is a smoother hole that injects more of a precise quantity. ive seen both work incredibly well in given situations. my 7.3 made more power on extrude hone than edm , but saw higher egt's with similarly rated flow rates on nozzles. 39lpm .

Derkperk · Sep 10, 2013

Extended Power said:
An issue I see now is...what if you get a set of injectors flow tested, and they come up short, or unmatched of the advertised flow?
Who is responsible for the correction?

What does it cost to flow, fix, and reflow a set of injectors?

The idea is that the builder will flow test them in house and if there is a descepency in what they are suppose to be, they will fix it and make it right.
You have to have a good shop do the work for you.
When I bought mine from RCD, they sent the flow sheet with.

motoxracer42 · Sep 11, 2013

has anyone had an issue with there injectors not being balanced and causing harm. Are we making a big deal of nohing. if they are off, its more than likely going to be a small amount. the main part that would have effect is the nozzles being balanced and if they are commanding the full stroke of the injector. if they command so much and its not emptying the injector your basing the whole test off of how balanced the nozzles flow. hell if your worried about balanced fueling look at the intake manifold. how balanced are the cylinders as far as airflow.
basically there is no way to be sure other than to spend the extra $ for a reputable builder. for me, all my purchases are based off of how I have been treated. along with how owners represent there business. Honestly, there are some good honest people in this industry. Hopefully it continues.

bigrpowr · Sep 11, 2013

motoxracer42 said:
has anyone had an issue with there injectors not being balanced and causing harm. Are we making a big deal of nohing. if they are off, its more than likely going to be a small amount. the main part that would have effect is the nozzles being balanced and if they are commanding the full stroke of the injector. if they command so much and its not emptying the injector your basing the whole test off of how balanced the nozzles flow. hell if your worried about balanced fueling look at the intake manifold. how balanced are the cylinders as far as airflow.
basically there is no way to be sure other than to spend the extra $ for a reputable builder. for me, all my purchases are based off of how I have been treated. along with how owners represent there business. Honestly, there are some good honest people in this industry. Hopefully it continues.

common rail FTW !!

Mdub707 · Sep 11, 2013

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
Yes, at one time they were the rage.

They tend to work well in small amounts. They show problems when trying to use EH for Fast flowing nozzles.

The best process is both. EDM for the size and EH to balance and clean up the EDM process. This is what we have been using since 2006.

Thanks for clearing it up. Never really thought about doing both.

bigrpowr said:
what i know about these process's, and the microscopic pics i have seen, the EDM has a rougher media that actually distrupt the spray helping to mist it more (for lamans terms) into the cylinder.

extrude hone is a smoother hole that injects more of a precise quantity. ive seen both work incredibly well in given situations. my 7.3 made more power on extrude hone than edm , but saw higher egt's with similarly rated flow rates on nozzles. 39lpm .

That makes sense. Similar to port/polish jobs. When I was a little more into quad racing and did a bunch of research on head flow, it was always common to leave the intake side rough to help atomize the fuel. On the diesel side of things it seems like we just compensate with higher injection pressures to atomize for a more complete burn.

That's a very interesting bit of info with a direct comparison to two different kinds of nozzles too. Opens up a whole new set of questions for me. I wonder if the results are the same if you're using a nozzle with fewer, larger holes, or smaller holes in larger quantities... like a 6 hole vs. an 8 hole nozzle.

bigrpowr said:
common rail FTW !!

Like Matt is saying though, even if you can inject the exact same amount of fuel into each cylinder, does it really matter THAT much, especially if you know you're not getting the same amount of air into each cylinder to have the same burn. Good points guys.