manual or auto

[m j]

comparing a $4000 modified auto + aftermarket controller to a stone stock truck transmission is hardly a a fair comparison.

autos are for bracket cars, real fast vehicles use a manual gearbox, but not a stock truck transmission.
something like a lenco or a liberty extreme style trans would get it done if someone wanted to spend the time and $$ to r&d it.
heck I would love to have a spare trans to see what it takes to facetooth it.

 

[Charles]

comparing a $4000 modified auto + aftermarket controller to a stone stock truck transmission is hardly a a fair comparison.

autos are for bracket cars, real fast vehicles use a manual gearbox, but not a stock truck transmission.
something like a lenco or a liberty extreme style trans would get it done if someone wanted to spend the time and $$ to r&d it.
heck I would love to have a spare trans to see what it takes to facetooth it.

Those are autos genius...

Planetary gearsets, actuated via clutch packs.... strangely familiar....

My 4R100 does exactly that each time I press the little red button for upshift and downshift. If you run a bruno in front of a lenco, now you've really worked hard to have a non-od, non lockup version of the same thing with far less continuous capacity.

In the sense of this thread, a "manual" would be the option where power is disconnected from one gearset, and reconnected to another on a shift.

What you described above is EXACTLY what happens inside a 4R100 on a shift and nothing like what happens in a ZF6.

Pull a lever with your hand to engage the clutches, pop them in with an air solenoid, or shove them in with hydraulic fluid, either way, a planetary set is being engaged the same way for a lenco, liberty or 4R100.

 

[BCpsd97]

May be a little late, but here goes.

I did the E4OD to ZF5 swap 3 weeks ago, old girl feels like twice the truck. I suppose it depends how much of a control freak you are

 

[Charles]

May be a little late, but here goes.

I did the E4OD to ZF5 swap 3 weeks ago, old girl feels like twice the truck. I suppose it depends how much of a control freak you are

Once again.... as long as we all agree to completely IGNORE full manual autos...


Otherwise you're just driving a real, real, real slow ass version of your truck if you had put full manual control on the E4 with a bump shifter...

Oh, and you can't tow as hard without melting that ZF into the ground. And you can't make powered shifts. And you can't start an equal amount of weight on a grade, or even close.

But yeah.... three times the truck, lol.



I swear to God. Running a manual because you liked control was what you did before we had a full manual option for the E4 and 4R. Now it's just what you do when the situation doesn't warrant the money for a full manual auto, or you're a little slow on the uptake.

 

[stroker2]

Once again.... as long as we all agree to completely IGNORE full manual autos...


Otherwise you're just driving a real, real, real slow ass version of your truck if you had put full manual control on the E4 with a bump shifter...

Oh, and you can't tow as hard without melting that ZF into the ground. And you can't make powered shifts. And you can't start an equal amount of weight on a grade, or even close.

But yeah.... three times the truck, lol.

I can agree with that but only if we are talking fully built autos AND the controller ($$$$$). Otherwise a factory 4r or e4 is not going to put up with that for very long.


Out of pure curiosity why would an auto start out on a grade better than a manual? Seems like if you are going to pull so much weight that it really makes that big of a difference on hills then you would have a 450 or 550 or something that already comes with say 4:88 gears or w/e they come with. Stuff that ZF in the lowest hole and seems like gears would be plenty low enough to get that load moving up a hill just as easy as an automagnum.

Again, just looking for the answer to this theory/fact as i havent ever seen an explanation to this

 

[89 Stroker]

only drive a manual when i have to, prefer auto over manual, E40D hasn't given me any problems... just gets old having to shift

 

[Charles]

I can agree with that but only if we are talking fully built autos AND the controller ($$$$$). Otherwise a factory 4r or e4 is not going to put up with that for very long.

I said, the only time to run a manual would be when the task didn't make the cost of the auto practical. That's the only reason my F550 has a manual with a 350 dollar clutch... It's already there, and it's cheap, although on trans number 3 it's not as cheap as it should be...

Out of pure curiosity why would an auto start out on a grade better than a manual? Seems like if you are going to pull so much weight that it really makes that big of a difference on hills then you would have a 450 or 550 or something that already comes with say 4:88 gears or w/e they come with. Stuff that ZF in the lowest hole and seems like gears would be plenty low enough to get that load moving up a hill just as easy as an automagnum.

Again, just looking for the answer to this theory/fact as i havent ever seen an explanation to this

I have had to drag our 550 with the tractor before because without low range it could not come up my driveway at ~27,000lbs in first gear with 4.88's. The engine is probably ~300rwhp on fuel as tuned for towing.

It's just not in the cards.

A torque converter on the other hand can produce TREMENDOUS volumes of driveline torque, and it's not actually destroying itself while doing it like a clutch disc is.

Unloading a fully loaded gooseneck with 18 to 20+ round bales (no fun...) multiple times from our 550 and backing my 4R100 F-250 up under it so I could bring the hay that last 1/4 mile to the barn up the driveway has made it abundantly clear that a torque converter > clutch.

If the 550 had low range I could use that. But the 250 doesn't need low range, nor does it even strain to pull the same load up the same hill. In the 550 I have to rev along, driving way faster than you would want on a twisty driveway, only to have it still go down and snuff out when you need it most because there simply isn't enough gear.

Going from full power to nada and trying to get the brakes to hold enough to make your backward slide down the driveway somewhat manageable while you hang your head out the window is a game I've played plenty. I always want to think it can do it. And sometimes it can when the load is lower. But at full load, unless the driveway surface is peeeeeerfect, and I get no spin, it will not go up. This is with me hauling ass, and generally making a mess out of the whole ordeal, only to have it snuff out anyway. And this engine makes tons of low end power too. The engine is strong, the grade and gearing vs load just can't win.


They don't come right out and say it, but obviously a manual trans tandem truck could not start off on this hill without breaking something, or spinning down and breaking something, if the clutch held and the engine didn't die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq7T4ZnvqV8&feature=endscreen


I had a bunch of trucks coming in and out of a job just last week and the manuals were CONSTANTLY spinning down in the entrance, and the guys weren't driving dumb, they would hit it fast, and then eaaaaaaaase up on the pedal as the truck slowly lost speed to try and get over the hump and they would start hopping and spin down. The autos never spun, and never even slowed down. Just like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvWPRpF_CTg

 

[strokin'_tatsch]

It amazes me the times that people will take out a perfectly good transmission and install a pile of sh*t in it's place for the sole purpose of having manual shift control instead of putting a stand-alone controller on the Auto with full-manual control in the first place and having their cake and eating it too.

Is there something in the water, or what? At what point in time with the general population stop being ignorant to the concept of the full-manual auto???

Charles, the main reason I see for people NOT doing a manually shifted auto rather than swapping to a ZF is because these people do not want to spend $4500 on a trans to handle 500hp + $1000 more to have manual control over it. A ZF will hold the power and only asks for a clutch that will put up with the abuse. Some ZF5s may break an input shaft with high power, weight, and hard shifts, but again... The problem is these people either don't want to spend or don't have the money to have an auto built for power and have manually shifting capability.

I will not argue the benefits of a built auto w/ manual shift capability and I plan to do a BTS/PCS conversion on my truck, but if I didn't want to drop $5000+ to make that happen then I would keep my ZF w/ the dual disc as it has never let me down with 377k miles of hard abuse. IMO, there's nothing wrong with a ZF from a reliability stand point.

 

[Charles]

Charles, the main reason I see for people NOT doing a manually shifted auto rather than swapping to a ZF is because these people do not want to spend $4500 on a trans to handle 500hp + $1000 more to have manual control over it. A ZF will hold the power and only asks for a clutch that will put up with the abuse. Some ZF5s may break an input shaft with high power, weight, and hard shifts, but again... The problem is these people either don't want to spend or don't have the money to have an auto built for power and have manually shifting capability.

I will not argue the benefits of a built auto w/ manual shift capability and I plan to do a BTS/PCS conversion on my truck, but if I didn't want to drop $5000+ to make that happen then I would keep my ZF w/ the dual disc as it has never let me down with 377k miles of hard abuse. IMO, there's nothing wrong with a ZF from a reliability stand point.

The ZF at 500hp requires a clutch that costs most people 700 or so dollars. I bought the PCS with harness and everything for like 580. A converter and valve changes and I think a 4R would hold 500hp with as much reliability as a single disc clutch in front of a ZF. This is assuming you don't tow heavy and put down 300rwhp continuously, in which case, the ZF is already out...

The ZF at up to 500hp is still slow as balls. And the shifts are slow, and if you try to push them faster... whoop... you just dropped another syncro... But it's practical. It is at least a practical solution, just a sh*tty one.


At the point where you would run a dual disc clutch, the ZF is much worse off. First off, you probably just plopped down what, 1500 for that clutch? And it will shift like garbage. If you don't think so, then you reaaaaaaaaly don't expect much, lol. I don't want my pickup to shift like an OTR tractor when I'm trying to push past that guy in the new mustang over there...

In reality, I gave 2800 for my trans, 800 for the converter and 580 for the controller.

But that is only comparable to a ZF with a dual disc clutch like a corvette is comparable to a powerwheels. About 1000 dollars into a stock 4R is about as capable as the ZF. Unless you tow real hard.... then it's light years ahead in the fact that it won't melt down in a single trip.

 

[strokin'_tatsch]

The ZF at 500hp requires a clutch that costs most people 700 or so dollars. I bought the PCS with harness and everything for like 580. A converter and valve changes and I think a 4R would hold 500hp with as much reliability as a single disc clutch in front of a ZF. This is assuming you don't tow heavy and put down 300rwhp continuously, in which case, the ZF is already out...

The ZF at up to 500hp is still slow as balls. And the shifts are slow, and if you try to push them faster... whoop... you just dropped another syncro... But it's practical. It is at least a practical solution, just a sh*tty one.


At the point where you would run a dual disc clutch, the ZF is much worse off. First off, you probably just plopped down what, 1500 for that clutch? And it will shift like garbage. If you don't think so, then you reaaaaaaaaly don't expect much, lol. I don't want my pickup to shift like an OTR tractor when I'm trying to push past that guy in the new mustang over there...

In reality, I gave 2800 for my trans, 800 for the converter and 580 for the controller.

But that is only comparable to a ZF with a dual disc clutch like a corvette is comparable to a powerwheels. About 1000 dollars into a stock 4R is about as capable as the ZF. Unless you tow real hard.... then it's light years ahead in the fact that it won't melt down in a single trip.

All I can say about the comments on a ZF having a meltdown with 300hp and pulling hard is that hasn't been my experience. I won't lie, the 3rd gear syncro is finally starting to let go @ 377k miles, but last I checked that doesn't stop it from driving and getting the job done. I don't pull more than about 15k, but I've pulled that at WOT quite a few times in a tune that makes 518hp. I'm actually surprised the input shaft and my ring and pinion are still in one piece after that. I'm sure the ZF has the short comings your talking about, but at the end of the day a 700 clutch is less than putting 1500 in a trans that may or may not hold 500hp reliably. I have seen several ZFs with broken input shafts from dropping the clutch on shifts pulling a heavy load with plenty of power, but really not many people are breaking them in the way I remember reading yours failed.

I'm not seeing anywhere to get a PCS for that price these days. Everything I've found has been $850-$915. Wish I could pick one up for $580. I don't know what converter you run, but I'm planning to run a PI converter and they're in the $1100-1200 ball park alone. These autos just get expensive, hell you got $4000 in yours and yours seems to be cheaper than most people get away with.

 

[Charles]

All I can say about the comments on a ZF having a meltdown with 300hp and pulling hard is that hasn't been my experience. I won't lie, the 3rd gear syncro is finally starting to let go @ 377k miles, but last I checked that doesn't stop it from driving and getting the job done. I don't pull more than about 15k, but I've pulled that at WOT quite a few times in a tune that makes 518hp. I'm actually surprised the input shaft and my ring and pinion are still in one piece after that. I'm sure the ZF has the short comings your talking about, but at the end of the day a 700 clutch is less than putting 1500 in a trans that may or may not hold 500hp reliably.

You may have had bad experience with a ZF, but I have had none of those. I put plenty of power through it when I tow and never had a problem myself. I have seen several of them with broken input shafts though from dropping the clutch on shifts pulling a heavy load with plenty of power.

I'm not seeing anywhere to get a PCS for that price these days. Everything I've found has been $850-$915. Wish I could pick one up for $580.

If I were to have to drive a manual trans in a superduty, I would choose an Eaton/Fuller 9. If it's going to be slow as balls and sh*tty to drive, it might as well be strong and capable of towing without melting down.

I've melted 2 ZF6's now at 300rwhp. That's not 110hp in a 300hp program. That's 300hp to the ground almost constantly for a couple hours at between 25 to 30,000lbs at interstate speed. I would take the KW, but the motor in the little trucks is more than willing, and the little trucks don't have to stop at the weigh station, can get in and out of fuel stations and burger joints easy, but the pos trans always gives up on me.

Conversely, I've made the same trips with the 4R100 at 4 to 500rwhp nearly continuously, one time actually consuming more water through the water injection system than DIESEL fuel through the engine...and the trans fluid looked like new. The fluid is always scorched black in the ZF. I don't recall ever pulling the plug that burnt, stinky mess didn't come out. That's in my 250 when it had two of them, and my 550 that's on it's 3rd one.

I have added a big auxiliary cooler to the 550 in hopes of helping it out, and I drive like a total pu$$y when I'm towing heavy now, and hopefully I won't have to put ANOTHER pos trans in that truck to keep it rolling down the road without my foot braced up against the stick to hold it in gear under power.

And that truck's only ~300rwhp. Flat to the floor it will not exceed 1250 degrees for eternity. Which is why it will see a ZF6 in hell before a single damn is given by that 7.3

 

[stroker2]

Well we all know the 7.3 doesnt give two sheets. So tell me Charles, did you replace the ZF's in your 550 with one that was also fully built with quality coolers, billet internals, and quality fluid, etc. like you did with your auto or did you just replace it with a factory unit?

Just making sure were comparing apples to apples here.

 

[JD3020]

The ZF at 500hp requires a clutch that costs most people 700 or so dollars. I bought the PCS with harness and everything for like 580. A converter and valve changes and I think a 4R would hold 500hp with as much reliability as a single disc clutch in front of a ZF. This is assuming you don't tow heavy and put down 300rwhp continuously, in which case, the ZF is already out...

When/where did you buy your PCS? I did some looking a while back, and the cheapest i could I find one anywhere was around $800.

 

[strokin'_tatsch]

When/where did you buy your PCS? I did some looking a while back, and the cheapest i could I find one anywhere was around $800.

He probably got it years and years ago, so that's probably why or he might have gotten it used. I haven't found them cheaper than $850 and I don't know what converter he is running, but a PI triple disc is around $1200...

 

[Charles]

Well we all know the 7.3 doesnt give two sheets. So tell me Charles, did you replace the ZF's in your 550 with one that was also fully built with quality coolers, billet internals, and quality fluid, etc. like you did with your auto or did you just replace it with a factory unit?

Just making sure were comparing apples to apples here.

Fully built ZF...No such thing. I don't have a breakage problem, it's a heat problem.

I installed a big cooler in addition to the factory cooler on the last OEM ZF6 I put in the 550. No shaft material is going to make the thing not melt down. They don't break, they melt down and start popping out of gear. I run the same valvoline trans fluid in the ZF that I run in the 4R. I run a factory cooler ONLY on the 4R, nothing additional, and by all accounts my BTS should run hotter than a factory 4R all else constant.

The 4R has taken hundred(s) plural, more horsepower continuously without so much as one damn being given thus far in terms of towing.

 

[Charles]

He probably got it years and years ago, so that's probably why or he might have gotten it used. I haven't found them cheaper than $850 and I don't know what converter he is running, but a PI triple disc is around $1200...

I did. I honestly don't even remember the year I bought the PCS. The converter was a PI stallion.

 

[JD3020]

I've got a PI converter as well, they aren't cheap. LOL

And this summer i'm going to do something about trans tuning, but unless i come across a used PCS somewhere i think i'm just gonna get Minotaur as it'd be cheaper, and just get my trans/fueling dialed in on my own. Although i'll still be lacking the manual control, i could just write a tune to shift exactly how i want it to.

 

[strokin'_tatsch]

I did. I honestly don't even remember the year I bought the PCS. The converter was a PI stallion.

Well prices have gone up on those parts since 2002. LOL Just those two parts are $2000 now days. Oh well, gotta spend it to have something I can race with.

 

[m j]

those are NOT autos. the lenco is close in that it uses planetary gears but the liberty is an offshoot of a doug nash/richmond gear 5 speed and has zero in common with an auto.

why do you say no such thing as a built zf5? just because no one has done it?

how much fluid in the auto vs the ZF6? 17qts vs 6qts ? want a hint on how to stop burning fluid?

I have driven an allison equiped truck, eww.
might be fine and dandy in the dry but you can keep it in the snow and mud and ice.
iirc they are limited to under 400hp applications

Those are autos genius...

Planetary gearsets, actuated via clutch packs.... strangely familiar....

My 4R100 does exactly that each time I press the little red button for upshift and downshift. If you run a bruno in front of a lenco, now you've really worked hard to have a non-od, non lockup version of the same thing with far less continuous capacity.

In the sense of this thread, a "manual" would be the option where power is disconnected from one gearset, and reconnected to another on a shift.

What you described above is EXACTLY what happens inside a 4R100 on a shift and nothing like what happens in a ZF6.

Pull a lever with your hand to engage the clutches, pop them in with an air solenoid, or shove them in with hydraulic fluid, either way, a planetary set is being engaged the same way for a lenco, liberty or 4R100.

 

[Charles]

those are NOT autos. the lenco is close in that it uses planetary gears but the liberty is an offshoot of a doug nash/richmond gear 5 speed and has zero in common with an auto.

why do you say no such thing as a built zf5? just because no one has done it?

how much fluid in the auto vs the ZF6? 17qts vs 6qts ? want a hint on how to stop burning fluid?

I have driven an allison equiped truck, eww.
might be fine and dandy in the dry but you can keep it in the snow and mud and ice.
iirc they are limited to under 400hp applications

The Liberty activates gearsets via clutches and each successive gear is driven under power, with no lapse in forward drive on a shift. That is about as far away from a ZF6 as you can go without having a converter.

I don't care if you use helical cut gears, straight cut gears, planetary gears or what, it's the same concept. The only true conceptual difference I see is that the gears do not "stack" on one another, in that the lower ratio has a one way sprag instead of staying applied and continuing to be pulled against as in a traditional auto, as well as a lenco. In this sense I think it's actually weaker as one set must hold all the applied torque. Hence the fact that at over $7600 for the base model it wouldn't even support a stock 6.4 powerstroke with a chip without exceeding it's rated capacity...

And I realize that the ZF has poor cooling capacity. Hence the fact that they are no longer offered in a superduty. I guess if you wanted to build a one-off pump assembly to move the needed volume, have a remote oil reservoir, oil thermostat housing and large cooler in addition to the OEM cooler then sure, you could get the temps down..... but you couldn't make the torque capacity go up. It would still hammer the input shaft bearing out of it, it just wouldn't scorch the fluid anymore. Otherwise Ford would have increased the flow, added fluid capacity and a larger cooler themselves instead of throwing the whole thing in the trash where it belonged.