manual or auto

[7.3 Cowboy]

Wow.... you answered it FOR me....

The above proves, proof-positive... you DO NOT UNDERSTAND the power being put through the trans when they die.

You obviously don't mind driving slow as *** down the interstate.


If I want to run 70 in a 70mph zone coming back from the Farm with a load of round bales, I need ~300hp TO THE GROUND to make that happen. Anything less and the truck will have to be gearing down and losing speed all the time.

A ZF6 will not support this request because it can't keep itself cool. I don't know what modifications are needed to change this, as I haven't found any success yet.... maybe this year...

A 4R100 will support this power continuously without overheating, no changes are needed.

Hey dumb *** I was talking about a + 300 tune. I have a real class 8 truck to tow with sounds like you need one too

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

You are not putting down much continuous power DUMB.... ASS.....


You can hook a truck to a 100,000lb load if you want, and if you drove 1mph nothing would EVER get hot...

OR.....

Take a truck making 400rwhp and with it COMPLETELY EMPTY, go lay it to the floor and start making laps around Talladega and you will melt down the trans, u-joints and rear carrier bearings if you don't get off the power soon enough.


The load alone means NOTHING!!! It is the combination of weight, speed and terrain that determines the stress to the trans. Or.... these variables are all wrapped up in one neat little value... POWER. In my experience, the truck needs to be steady-state at ~300rwhp to push the ZF beyond it's happy spot.

99% of all 7.3's don't EVER even MAKE 300rwhp on the best day of their lives. Much less do they then drive down the road flat-out, pulling that power.

Last year I slowed from 70-75 down to 60-65 and the trans seems okay on the two runs I made at that speed. Just that little bit of speed change made a world of difference because of the dramatic change to the continuous power required.

If you let the truck lose speed on hills..... again, MASSIVE amounts of power can be consumed on hills. I have completely consumed 600+hp on hills, towing with my 250.... no pedal left down there simply MAINTAINING speed...


Point being.... 99% of the time, guys with a story like yours above have a truck that puts down 250rwhp in the hottest program they have, with the stars all aligned and perfect conditions. Then they take off towing in their "tow" program, which doesn't even make that..... THEN.... they drive down the road at half pedal because they can't keep EGT in check....

Go write a program, and set up a 7.3 that makes 300+ rwhp ON THE DYNO, then go lay it TO THE FLOORBOARD for 2 HOURS and let me know what that ZF6 has to say.

10:1 odds you couldn't even put together a 7.3 to MAKE enough continuous power to melt a ZF without running excessive egt and killing itself in the first place.

Maybe some of you should focus on that. Can your engine even MAKE 300+ for hours on end? That might be step one in understanding why you don't have trans temp issues...

:doh:

My truck isn't exactly stick DUMB ASS. All those miles are going down interstate the average trip to the job site was Atleast a hour then stop and go through the city from there .

You give me the money to buld a 7.3 with continuous power and a new zf-6 and I'll make one that will stay together for hours towing.

Most of the places we go aren't exactly flat so it wasn't like its was just going 70 on the flats .

 

[Charles]

Hey dumb *** I was talking about a + 300 tune. I have a real class 8 truck to tow with sounds like you need one too

Good for you.

Whenever I want to take twice as long, burn a time and a half the fuel, stop at weigh stations, not be able to swing into any fuel station I please, not be able to pull into any fast-food joint I please and not be able to get within a half-mile of my barn at home I'll be sure to hook up the Kenworth just to move 10,000lbs of hay... then spend 2 hours running the tires off my tractor up and down the driveway and out in the middle of the road to unload. The trailer CUBES out long before it SCALES out, so the semi is a serious waste for moving hay in my experience. Yes I've done it.... no it didn't pay for itself, and yes it was a twofold pain in the ass comparatively.

There are very good reasons not to go hook up the semi on plenty of loads. I don't use it for anything under 16,000lbs. The goosneck I use is rated for a 15,250lb load.

And aside from the puny little ZF trans, everybody else is good to go with 10,000lbs of freakin hay...



As for this:

Hey dumb *** I was talking about a + 300 tune.

If you were, then you're the dumb ass. If you were actually talking about a 300rwhp program (as we were) and switched to the above later like a douche, then again, you're still a dumb ass. To help you decide which reason you're a dumb ass, look below.


You responded to this:

Originally Posted by stroker2

you obviously have never met charles... While I do enjoy shifting gears. What he is stating is the truth. These transmissions are rated for 650 ft. lbs of CONTINUOUS torque. Most of you guys will NEVER put 650 ft. lbs. of continuous torque through one. Imagine going up a 7-10% grade with 35K gross, now say your truck is 300 HP TO THE WHEELS and you are holding it to the floor just to maintain 60MPH in your 300HP tune, and do this for a few hours. A ZF cannot handle that, but 99.9% of you guys will never do that.

With this:

Why would any person not asking for failure tow on a 300 hp tune? My zf 6 has oil cooler on it

In ALL CAPS it said 300HP TO THE WHEELS in your 300HP tune, and you respond to that, quoting it in your response, with the above about why a person would tow in a 300hp tune.


So.... if you weren't referencing 300hp at the ground then you sure did a hell of a job explicitly writing exactly that, even quoting 300HP TO THE WHEELS, yourself!!!

LOL

 

[Charles]

My truck isn't exactly stick DUMB ASS. All those miles are going down interstate the average trip to the job site was Atleast a hour then stop and go through the city from there .

You give me the money to buld a 7.3 with continuous power and a new zf-6 and I'll make one that will stay together for hours towing.

Most of the places we go aren't exactly flat so it wasn't like its was just going 70 on the flats .

I tell you that in my experience it takes around 300rwhp continuous to push the ZF trans into the kill zone.

You tell me a story about how you've run one at 186rwhp forever and it's still fine, so there....

And the rest of us are like.... okay.... good for you fella.


I feel like you need a pat on the head or something?

 

[m j]

it takes 300hp continous to move 10000# of hay?

 

[7.3powerstroke00]

Not really. You can prefer a manual all you want, but you won't buy one from Ford in a diesel superduty anymore because they are pointless. They are ordered less and less every day in bigger trucks too. Midsize trucks (garbage, moving, delivery, concrete, container) almost never get ordered with a manual anymore.

Sales went down on manual trucks because demand went down due to the fact that more and more people have no idea how to drive or operate them properly! Plus in this day in time people see it as easier, it's less movement and more convenient to just pull the lever to D and hit the go pedal! It amazes me how many people have no idea how to drive a manual transmission vehicle, and most can never be taught because they have no COMMON SENSE or hand, eye, and foot coordination! Technology has made people LAZY period! Now I am not arguing the fact that an auto when set up correctly has its place!

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Good for you.

Whenever I want to take twice as long, burn a time and a half the fuel, stop at weigh stations, not be able to swing into any fuel station I please, not be able to pull into any fast-food joint I please and not be able to get within a half-mile of my barn at home I'll be sure to hook up the Kenworth just to move 10,000lbs of hay... then spend 2 hours running the tires off my tractor up and down the driveway and out in the middle of the road to unload. The trailer CUBES out long before it SCALES out, so the semi is a serious waste for moving hay in my experience. Yes I've done it.... no it didn't pay for itself, and yes it was a twofold pain in the ass comparatively.

There are very good reasons not to go hook up the semi on plenty of loads. I don't use it for anything under 16,000lbs. The goosneck I use is rated for a 15,250lb load.

And aside from the puny little ZF trans, everybody else is good to go with 10,000lbs of freakin hay...



As for this:



If you were, then you're the dumb ass. If you were actually talking about a 300rwhp program (as we were) and switched to the above later like a douche, then again, you're still a dumb ass. To help you decide which reason you're a dumb ass, look below.


You responded to this:



With this:





In ALL CAPS it said 300HP TO THE WHEELS in your 300HP tune, and you respond to that, quoting it in your response, with the above about why a person would tow in a 300hp tune.


So.... if you weren't referencing 300hp at the ground then you sure did a hell of a job explicitly writing exactly that, even quoting 300HP TO THE WHEELS, yourself!!!

LOL

Alright I miss read it thinking he ment a extra 300 hp but why would you even buy a class 8 truck to haul 10,000 lbs with in the first place doesn't seem real smart to me? Why wouldn't haul Atleast 30 bales? In my area around me I can take it anywhere I need to go so it doesn't I convince me and can run 70-75 down the highway just like you say you do

 

[Binder man]

Sales went down on manual trucks because demand went down due to the fact that more and more people have no idea how to drive or operate them properly! Plus in this day in time people see it as easier, it's less movement and more convenient to just pull the lever to D and hit the go pedal! It amazes me how many people have no idea how to drive a manual transmission vehicle, and most can never be taught because they have no COMMON SENSE or hand, eye, and foot coordination! Technology has made people LAZY period! Now I am not arguing the fact that an auto when set up correctly has its place!

Ford quit providing a 6 speed partially because of this, but It's also because they couldn't rate the engine to full power with a manual, and it would have a lower GVWR.

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Good for you.

Whenever I want to take twice as long, burn a time and a half the fuel, stop at weigh stations, not be able to swing into any fuel station I please, not be able to pull into any fast-food joint I please and not be able to get within a half-mile of my barn at home I'll be sure to hook up the Kenworth just to move 10,000lbs of hay... then spend 2 hours running the tires off my tractor up and down the driveway and out in the middle of the road to unload. The trailer CUBES out long before it SCALES out, so the semi is a serious waste for moving hay in my experience. Yes I've done it.... no it didn't pay for itself, and yes it was a twofold pain in the ass comparatively.

There are very good reasons not to go hook up the semi on plenty of loads. I don't use it for anything under 16,000lbs. The goosneck I use is rated for a 15,250lb load.

And aside from the puny little ZF trans, everybody else is good to go with 10,000lbs of freakin hay...



As for this:



If you were, then you're the dumb ass. If you were actually talking about a 300rwhp program (as we were) and switched to the above later like a douche, then again, you're still a dumb ass. To help you decide which reason you're a dumb ass, look below.


You responded to this:



With this:





In ALL CAPS it said 300HP TO THE WHEELS in your 300HP tune, and you respond to that, quoting it in your response, with the above about why a person would tow in a 300hp tune.


So.... if you weren't referencing 300hp at the ground then you sure did a hell of a job explicitly writing exactly that, even quoting 300HP TO THE WHEELS, yourself!!!

LOL

Alright I miss read it thinking he ment a extra 300 hp but why would you even buy a class 8 truck to haul 10,000 lbs with in the first place doesn't seem real smart to me? Why wouldn't haul Atleast 30 bales? In my area around me I can take it anywhere I need to go so it doesn't I convince me and can run 70-75 down the highway just like you say you do

 

[PWRstroke_smoke]

I tell you that in my experience it takes around 300rwhp continuous to push the ZF trans into the kill zone.

You tell me a story about how you've run one at 186rwhp forever and it's still fine, so there....

And the rest of us are like.... okay.... good for you fella.


I feel like you need a pat on the head or something?

I disagree, some of what you say on all these manual tranny debating threads is good info and some is just plain garbage! People are lazy and just dont know how to drive a fn manual anymore.

Not to mention you would argue with an 80 year lady about the color of the sky if you thought you had a chance at proving her wrong.

 

[Binder man]

I disagree, some of what you say on all these manual tranny debating threads is good info and some is just plain garbage! People are lazy and just dont know how to drive a fn manual anymore.

Not to mention you would argue with an 80 year lady about the color of the sky if you thought you had a chance at proving her wrong.[/QUOTE

Yes people are lazy and don't know how to drive a manual. BUT what he is saying here is the truth. Some will disagree because they have never seen it, but they also have never pushed a ZF to the limits.

Like I said earlier I'm not going to get into a pissing match with anyone, but the ZF's plain and simple cannot handle the torque that a MODIFIED motor CAN push through it. 99% of people with a 6 speed will never put 300 HP down to the wheels and use it for hours on end. If you pull a trailer in a 300HP tune across flat ground you won't use all 300HP, therefore your ZF will happily live on and shift gears. If you put 300HP to the ground for hours on end the ZF will not live. Plain and simple. A truck pull might last 10 seconds at full power if your lucky. Drag racing is even less.

I love driving stick shifts. I've had two ZF6 powered trucks and miss them both because I get bored driving a auto. I'd really like my E4 to be manual operated but that's not in the budget right now. Even though I love ZF's I will still argue that they are not indestructible and it's not just from amateur drivers. I believe charles melted his on the highway. If it was from amateur driving he would have grinding gears from screwing up synchros. But he has stated that input bearings and popping out of gear (which probably was synchros) were his problems.

While I may not disagree about him arguing about the color of the sky, he is an extremely knowledgeable person...almost scary smart to a point. And knows these trucks very well. If you have seen his truck run, you would believe it.

 

[stroker2]

I disagree, some of what you say on all these manual tranny debating threads is good info and some is just plain garbage! People are lazy and just dont know how to drive a fn manual anymore.

Not to mention you would argue with an 80 year lady about the color of the sky if you thought you had a chance at proving her wrong.

LOL ^^^^:whs:

Yes people are lazy and don't know how to drive a manual. BUT what he is saying here is the truth. Some will disagree because they have never seen it, but they also have never pushed a ZF to the limits.

Like I said earlier I'm not going to get into a pissing match with anyone, but the ZF's plain and simple cannot handle the torque that a MODIFIED motor CAN push through it. 99% of people with a 6 speed will never put 300 HP down to the wheels and use it for hours on end. If you pull a trailer in a 300HP tune across flat ground you won't use all 300HP, therefore your ZF will happily live on and shift gears. If you put 300HP to the ground for hours on end the ZF will not live. Plain and simple. A truck pull might last 10 seconds at full power if your lucky. Drag racing is even less.

I love driving stick shifts. I've had two ZF6 powered trucks and miss them both because I get bored driving a auto. I'd really like my E4 to be manual operated but that's not in the budget right now. Even though I love ZF's I will still argue that they are not indestructible and it's not just from amateur drivers. I believe charles melted his on the highway. If it was from amateur driving he would have grinding gears from screwing up synchros. But he has stated that input bearings and popping out of gear (which probably was synchros) were his problems.

While I may not disagree about him arguing about the color of the sky, he is an extremely knowledgeable person...almost scary smart to a point. And knows these trucks very well. If you have seen his truck run, you would believe it.

I have seen charles on the forum for a while now. Always has something to contribute (even mostly experience) to many threads so i agree, he isn't a dummy. I think its just his arguing and lack of desire to accept/respect others experiences and practices that lights everyone up. I'd like to see him and dukie go a few rounds on the forum :gun: .


Now on topic, i accept what he is saying about the zf not being able to hold up as well as a BUILT auto to a MODIFIED engine. But how many people tow 30k with these trucks that ARE making that much continuous power? Not much. The ZF is a great trans for 99% of the people who have them that even run a chip on the truck. Not many people put aftermarket injectors, turbo, clutches, fuel system, exhaust, intake, gauges, etc to make money with their truck (hauling 30k regularly), they replace them with factory parts and the only mods they may do is exhaust, chip and maybe some gauges which are the cheapest of the mods listed.

 

[Binder man]

LOL ^^^^:whs:





I have seen charles on the forum for a while now. Always has something to contribute (even mostly experience) to many threads so i agree, he isn't a dummy. I think its just his arguing and lack of desire to accept/respect others experiences and practices that lights everyone up. I'd like to see him and dukie go a few rounds on the forum :gun: .


Now on topic, i accept what he is saying about the zf not being able to hold up as well as a BUILT auto to a MODIFIED engine. But how many people tow 30k with these trucks that ARE making that much continuous power? Not much. The ZF is a great trans for 99% of the people who have them that even run a chip on the truck. Not many people put aftermarket injectors, turbo, clutches, fuel system, exhaust, intake, gauges, etc to make money with their truck (hauling 30k regularly), they replace them with factory parts and the only mods they may do is exhaust, chip and maybe some gauges which are the cheapest of the mods listed.

Exactly, thats the exact point he's been trying to get through. But his 550 has injectors and maybe a ball bearing? I can't remember anymore.

 

[96OBS]

Definitely not a pro, but my input is stock vs stock I like the zf better than the auto. Not everybody has the money to get a built auto trans. Plus if anybody is like me, I get really bored with an automatic trans. I like shifting gears, I bought a turned up 12v bout 6 months ago and sold it for my 7.3 just because it was an automatic and gave me a ton of problems....

 

[Charles]

I didn't buy a tractor to haul hay, it's for hauling equipment. I simply hauled a load of hay to see if it was worth the trouble. It wasn't. If a semi was always the answer, 550's wouldn't exist.

To the guy that thinks some of my info is garbage, CORRECT the errors.

For the guy that can't understand 300hp for 10,000lbs, do you understand that you could hold 300hp flat to the floor with the truck dead empty and it would still level out and reach steady state?

Something you should think about.... windload.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I don't understand where you guys think that 300hp is a lot of power. Go take a 400hp factory 6.7 and pull 30k through the mountains and report back if you thought that you had too much power.

I've held them to the floor for 10minutes constantly losing speed down to 35mph from 80. And you think a 7.3 with even 300hp and a manual is out of line. Lol it wouldn't even come close.

As much as you guys can't handle the truth. A ZF CANNOT handle that power and be reliable. All preferences aside and I don't care if you get bored or love to play with a stick. Charles stated that they are an inferior trans and he is correct. If anyone can prove that a ZF will hold more power and last longer all while providing a better power transfer over an auto then please prove the evidence.

They can't meet emissions and hold the power newer diesels require to run. Period.

 

[JoeDaddy]

I have seen charles on the forum for a while now. Always has something to contribute (even mostly experience) to many threads so i agree, he isn't a dummy. I think its just his arguing and lack of desire to accept/respect others experiences and practices that lights everyone up. I'd like to see him and dukie go a few rounds on the forum :gun:

Nah.... He just thinks he's done the homework and checked the facts enough that his opinion is correct and should be followed without question. As do most of us What we all forget is that while people can learn without experience they can never be certain until they prove something for themselves. Just cruise the 7.3 threads for awhil.. you'll see posts about CPS failures. If someone says their truck died 100 guys will race each other to be the first to call CPS!!!!!!!.

I would guess less than 1% have ever experienced a real CPS failure. I've personally never seen one. I've changed several but each time I clean the old one and POOF! Its fixed.

The auto is stronger. I do not believe however that 301hp is death to a standard.

As for a Charles v Dookie battle, its not a match. Charles loves a good debate where he can both educate and prove his opinion. Dookie is a bored dental hygenist looking for a fight facts be damned.

 

[Charles]

Nah.... He just thinks he's done the homework and checked the facts enough that his opinion is correct and should be followed without question. As do most of us

No. I'm not offering an opinion.... like, I think an auto is better because it feels smoother when I drive, or because I would rather not shift myself, or because I don't like manual transmissions and they aren't cool, blah, blah, blah...

Those would be examples of opinions, and the type of info you've offered thus far.

Stories about cool guys driving manuals, harley sounds, blah, blah, blah.

What I've offered is objective data. Actual transmission ratings as provided by the people who manufactured them, actual relationships between engine torque and available output torque (total multiplication ratio), ability to transfer torque over an rpm range (torque converter function), stall torque capacity (starting off on a hill), continuous power capacity both as specified by the manufacturer, and as field tested via multiple experiments with similar outcomes, so on and so forth.

My opinion is that a full auto is junk, a manual somewhat better, and a full manual-auto the best option. That opinion is based on data in part listed above.

I do not expect anyone to accept anything because I say so. That is 100% the opposite of what I expect. I expect people to accept things only when they make sense, and all available data supports that conclusion.

When someone brings forth data that contradicts my conclusion based on other data, and it is found valid, you will see me accept a new conclusion, as you have before.

When people offer nothing but feel-good bs and preferential crap, you will see no value given to their points, as their points have no support!

The auto is stronger. I do not believe however that 301hp is death to a standard.

1000hp would not kill one.....for a short burst. A ZF6 might hold a smooth 2000hp for all I know. If you kept the rpm up it might hold 4000hp! But somewhere around 300hp or less for any extended period of time, and the unit cannot shed the heat. Myself and at least one or two others have given direct field experience with this fact.

ZF themselves would not rate the unit any higher than 520lb/ft in 2000. It was explained in another source that the unit having 6 complete gearsets in constant mesh the whole time the unit is in use creates a lot of heat. It's entirely possible that the damn thing simply generates more heat than the 4R with a couple planetary sets engaged and the converter locked. Nevermind the tremendously higher ability of the 4R to move and radiate away that heat.

If you ran a ZF6 behind a brand new 6.7 at 400hp ~350rwhp, and actually matted that truck with a solid load, with bad aero, you would see the end of a ZF6 with a bone stock pickup truck engine. This is why it is not available behind that engine. Preference and all that be damned... the thing can't measure up.

 

[JoeDaddy]

LOL I thought you'd like that

Was you in attendance at TS this year?
I was hoping we could discuss some serious 5hit over some cool beers.

 

[Charles]

LOL I thought you'd like that

Was you in attendance at TS this year?
I was hoping we could discuss some serious 5hit over some cool beers.

I was running irrigation at home. Figured it would get rained out.