My Redemption build

04cr450

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T4 kit is a piece of cake... just as easy as a stock vgt as long as the dp lines up correctly and the drain tube is correct. I ran into the same issues... stubby ratchet wrench for the exhaust turbo housing, no need for double nut they won't back off .
 

04cr450

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I sense a non vgt bashing and more to come. Seriously though it's just like when we first did a stock vgt install they were a pain and we cussed, after a couple they were a breeze... same with the non vgt there certain tricks etc that need to take place to make the install go smoother. The problems you stated are posted over the forum including my install problems.

I know I'm starting chit on your thread but just saying. If I raised your heart rate I apologize charlie lol
 

KCTurbos

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T4 kit is a piece of cake... just as easy as a stock vgt as long as the dp lines up correctly and the drain tube is correct. I ran into the same issues... stubby ratchet wrench for the exhaust turbo housing, no need for double nut they won't back off .

Ya I read through your thread where it took 3 kits before you got one that worked right. "piece of cake" LOL. The down pipe and drain tube are for sure the worst part. Up pipes went on with ease and seemed to fit great. CAC tube was good, air filter was good. Oil feed line was good.

Maybe it is worse on 2003-2004 trucks because my leaf spring hanger was the issue with the downpipe. I finally dropped my downpipe down far enough to dent it really good with a sledge hammer and that got it close enough to use a 4' pry bar to get it on. I have read that certain kits only work with certain down pipes. Which is weird because my downpipe worked perfect on the stock style vgt turbos, I figured it would line up fine.

My kit uses nuts and lock washers. I was told by a few guys to double check them and double nut them and they. I checked them the first night and managed to get a few turns out of them. I also checked them last night and got a few turns. It is cheap insurance IMO


My kit made getting a turbo in and out a piece of cake, way easier than the factory location.

Weird... It only takes me about 5-10 min to pull the stock vgt turbo. and about 10-15min to put it back in. How much faster can it get? It took me a little over 1 hour the very first time I did it (but I never ran into the back 3rd bolt stripped out). When it comes to easy stock turbos to pull... the 6.0 is at the top of the list. Way easier than most other platforms like the 6.4, 6.7, duramax, OBS, etc


Drain tube doesn't work on mine, it's too short. Got a temporary fix in there now. Looking for more permanent ideas

That is one of the most common issue I hear... drain tubes don't work. Mine was a hard line and took about 20 tries to get it right. I think a flex line might be better.

I have seen there are kits out there with billet pedestals that eliminate the oil drain issue... that sounds promising. If I would have "purchased" a kit I might have went that route, or at least something with some flex in it.



I sense a non vgt bashing and more to come. Seriously though it's just like when we first did a stock vgt install they were a pain and we cussed, after a couple they were a breeze... same with the non vgt there certain tricks etc that need to take place to make the install go smoother. The problems you stated are posted over the forum including my install problems.

I know I'm starting chit on your thread but just saying. If I raised your heart rate I apologize charlie lol


I guess you are kinda right about the tricks. I would suggest people buying a new recommended downpipe to go with the kits and using kits that have good solutions for the drain lines. Hopefully this thread helps someone else because this info was not "all over the forums" until I had an issue myself and then received tons of advice via PM, text, and email.

I get asked by a lot of guys "why don't you run a non-vgt kit on your 6.0 and try it out"... So I took up the challenge and I am just posting my honest experiences. I am excited to see how it stacks up power wise on the dyno.
 

shmoozer

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I've heard from a couple of reputable people that the up pipes for those fancy billet pedestal kits are hit and miss on fitment. Which is a shame because they look like they'd be the bees knees


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powerstrokecrzy

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That is one of the most common issue I hear... drain tubes don't work. Mine was a hard line and took about 20 tries to get it right. I think a flex line might be better.

I have seen there are kits out there with billet pedestals that eliminate the oil drain issue... that sounds promising. .

I agree, a flexible line would probably work better. I made do with a piece of hydraulic line and clamped it to the drain out the turbo and the fitting that goes in the hpop cover, it works, doesn't leak, but i want a better solution.

Just to clarify I'm not bashing Irate, they were more than helpful,and sent me another drain and the billet piece that bolts to bottom of turbo thinking theres a chance i accidently got one for a different turbo but it was the same and i haven't contacted them back. Just one of those things I'm gonna have to figure out on my own
 
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04cr450

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Piece of cake lol u sensed my humor charlie lol I know I went thru hell with first outing on the non vgt install.. since then I've done three and the other two went really easy. I hope u like the non vgt setup!!
 

swinky

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Piece of cake lol u sensed my humor charlie lol I know I went thru hell with first outing on the non vgt install.. since then I've done three and the other two went really easy. I hope u like the non vgt setup!!
He won't lol we all know it's going to make less power and drive like ****......

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KCTurbos

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He won't lol we all know it's going to make less power and drive like ****......

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I think you will be very surprised with my data/info. I am nothing but truthful in all my posts and always seeking data. I am very surprised NO ONE has ever taken the time to do back to back testing with setups like this and post all the info. I believe I am the first guy to actually do it... and of course you are here trying to give me grief :gun:

I am going to write up and post some dyno graphs tomorrow morning.
 

swinky

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I think you will be very surprised with my data/info. I am nothing but truthful in all my posts and always seeking data. I am very surprised NO ONE has ever taken the time to do back to back testing with setups like this and post all the info. I believe I am the first guy to actually do it... and of course you are here trying to give me grief :gun:

I am going to write up and post some dyno graphs tomorrow morning.
I'm interested for sure. I'm curious what the 362 will make for power.

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6.0 Tech

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I think you will be very surprised with my data/info. I am nothing but truthful in all my posts and always seeking data. I am very surprised NO ONE has ever taken the time to do back to back testing with setups like this and post all the info. I believe I am the first guy to actually do it... and of course you are here trying to give me grief :gun:

I am going to write up and post some dyno graphs tomorrow morning.

Hey charlie, if ya need i got some crayons, ill draw up a dyno graph or two to show the non vgt boys how good vgts really are LOL :poke:
 

KCTurbos

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Well. I have a lot of data to share. I am trying to be as honest and unbiased as possible while still sharing true and helpful info. There is going to be a lot of "comparing to vgt" but that is only because that is my only personal frame of reference on a 6.0. I have tried a bunch of different sct and FICM tunes.

For anyone who did not read it yet. I am running an s364.5 sxe with 74mm turbine and .91 t4 housing with 205/30s

Overall opinion: Lots of power up above 2500rpms. Hot and laggy down low where I do most of my driving. At first it just smoked a lot and felt gutless for normal driving around town. After a few days of driving I have learned to keep it running "cleaner" by basically accelerating slower down low and REALLY rolling into the throttle. Probably the same way I felt the first time I went from a stock truck with a tune to bigger injectors and bigger vgt turbo.

Low end Boost: Under 2000 rpms during normal driving the turbo struggles to make any boost. It wont even lift my needle on my mechanical gauge but it will register about 0-4psi of boost on my SCT. I have tried locking the converter down low and rolling into the throttle as hard as I can to see how much boost I can build below 2000rpms. It will usually just bellows smoke and then downshifts but I have been able to see about 7-10psi a few times. I have heard that the 68mm turbine wheel spools much faster. I think I will try swapping one in and see what happens. I figure it will gain spool up and lose top end.

Mid range boost. Once the turbo is lit it makes a pretty solid 1:1 ebp to boost ratio below 3000rpms all the way up to 40psi. That is pretty cool to see because I am used to a vgt where boost is always chasing ebp when accelerating. With the s364.5 even if cruising above 2200-2500rpms and you roll into it hard you will get that thick haze for a second before the turbo spools up. Rolling from a stop and hitting it at 2200-2500 makes the power come on FAST, especially if you already have the turbine housing hot. It hits HARD and you better just hold on and point it in the right direction.

Top end boost. I found it interesting that above about 3000rpms the turbine housing starts to choke out and the 1:1 ratio goes away. By 4000rpms it is usually about a 2:1 ratio. Boost usually drops off to about 30-35psi by the end of the rpm band. I wonder if a 1.0ar housing would help that.


EGTS
Cruising at 65-70mph are around 575-675
WOT hits about 1600egt

Max boots: 40-45psi

Max HP was 630... yes that was more than the stage 3 which came in about 628hp. The dyno runs actually came in VERY close when you look at the curves. Stage 3 was usually around 620-628hp where the s364.5 was 625-630hp



NOTE: we stopped running loaded dyno runs. Cory @ diesels and more tested his brand new 2015 6.7 f250 and the loaded dyno run was super close to factory crank output. The unloaded dyno runs were much closer to track times an RWHP. We are going to hold off testing the dyno with the load cell as it throws the number off a little bit. Testing with the load up to high would be like pulling a 10k trailer behind the truck while running down the track. It puts a lot more heat/stress on the motor which fuels more and pushes the turbo harder.

So... as it stands now:
KC stage 2: 605hp
KC stage 3: 628hp
364.5, 74mm, .91 T4: 630hp
 

KCTurbos

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Something I forgot to mention... BOTH the KC stage 3 and s364.5 were totally out of fuel and ran super clean at WOT. I am curious what would happen if they both had more fuel. I am unsure if the HP numbers would stay so close together or if we would see more of a Gap.

I am tempted to throw on an s369 to see what it does but I doubt it will make much more power. I think we are just out of fuel.


Let me know if anyone has any thoughts on what to test... there are just too many options to do all of them.

I was planning on running an s362 sxe next week.
I am tempted to throw in a 68mm turbine into the s364.5 to see how much it helps bottom end

I am also going to throw a 74mm turbine in the KC 68mm stage 3 turbo to see what it does.
 

04cr450

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Great info charlie. I loved my 64.5 when I had it on there. Do u agree it spools like the stage 3? Granted I'm running 75 nozzles so that may help spool up. Charlie the 68 exhaust will spool up better but run high ebp readings. . Alot higher than the 74.
the 369 is an animal. Was night and day when I put the 69 on compared to the 64.5. Throw some bigger nozzles on charlie for future data?
 

KCTurbos

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Great info charlie. I loved my 64.5 when I had it on there. Do u agree it spools like the stage 3? Granted I'm running 75 nozzles so that may help spool up. Charlie the 68 exhaust will spool up better but run high ebp readings. . Alot higher than the 74.
the 369 is an animal. Was night and day when I put the 69 on compared to the 64.5. Throw some bigger nozzles on charlie for future data?

No I would have to disagree on the spool up. Not even close. I know you ran a generation 1 stage 3 a long time ago but a lot has changed... we are about to roll out gen 3 (which is what I am testing). I also know you changed a bunch of other things when you swapped on your non-vgt which I am sure affected your perspective.


The KC stage 3 spools much better, runs cleaner, and makes more boost down low. This is the easiest way to describe it. These numbers are based on being locked in OD (but they are similar with the tq converter unlocked off the line, it is just easier to record data in OD)

Trying to push the turbo hard down low...

1500rpms
KC68 - about 3-5psi
s364.5 - 0-1psi

1800rpms
KC68 - 5-10psi
s364.5 - 1-3psi

2000rpms
KC68 - 10-20psi
s364.5 - 3-7psi

By 2200 - 2500 rpms they are both going strong.



With regards to spool up... I am tempted to throw on larger nozzles to see exactly what it would help. I have PLENTY of fuel down low. So I am not sure how larger nozzles will affect it. Assuming you dumped the same amount of fuel at any give point with a larger nozzle, it will result in lower atomization, but dump the fuel quicker.

I would venture to say there is an "optimum" ratio. Of atomization to ICP pressure to PW duration to nozzle size... but I am not sure where it is.
 
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KCTurbos

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I got a little towing time in over the long weekend. I was only pulling a small trailer with a few quads on it but I did go up the mountains to about 7000 feet in elevation. Trailer and quads probably came in at around 3000-5000lbs

On the way up I loaded up a "specific" non-vgt towing tune setup for my truck. It was very interesting. EGTs kept VERY cool but the truck had very little power, I was afraid to try passing anyone for fear that I would not make it around them fast enough. It seemed like the tune unlocked the tq converter anytime I went above 1/4 throttle. I ended up pulling the hills about 3/4 to full throttle in 5th at 2800rpms with the tq converter unlocked. That caused the tranny to get a little hot, felt like it had no power... BUT... I never even broke 1000egts the whole time even when trying. They had the fuel pulled way back. At WOT I was at less than 1.0ms of pulse width. Tranny was always hunting for gears trying to stay above 2800rpms even under minimal throttle. I was not super impressed with the tune because it felt weak and did not fit my driving style, but it got the job done. If I tried pulling a heavy load like 10-15k then I doubt it would maintain speed going up the hills, but it would never have an egt problem.

I took a video of this tune to show what it was like... definitely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XftlWKsJv4

On the way back I loaded up one of my favorite tow tune (works both for vgt and non-vgt). Truck still did well. I had no problems maintaining speed, could easily pass people, and kept egts under control. I usually went up the hills at 65mph in OD with the converter locked at 2500rpms. Towed basically just like the KC stage 3. The only difference was the stage 3 "can" tow under 1800-2000rpms with boost but it would just get hot. S364.5 struggled to do anything under 1800rpms and would just have to downshift. I don't usually tow at that low of rpms with either turbo, I just just like seeing what they could do.
 
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KCTurbos

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I also spent a lot of time trying different tunes and testing them during normal driving. I managed to get a few that spooled a little faster down low. My honest opinion has not changed very much. It is pretty laggy down low and has made me lose most of my enjoyment from daily driving the truck. It feels like the truck has lost most of its "ZIP" down low for spirited driving around town. I won't even pull out in front of traffic for fear that I will smoke out the intersection. I live in a big congested city with basically no back roads, I try really hard not to roll coal. This turbo is SUPER impressive when you load up a full fuel tune and pulls VERY HARD at WOT above 2500rpms and will clean up the top end to basically nothing... but this is definitely not the turbo for me.

I am going to try to get a few daily driving videos and do a loaded dyno run. Then swap on the s362.
 

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