Need a little info on injectors tip sizes

[BS Hauler]

Looking at putting in 238/80's into my truck. Why would a person choose the tip size from one to the other. Lets say from a 30 to a 80 or a 100 in this size of injector. Pulling a horse trailer with a 6spd and 4:11 gears with 235/85-16 tires. I have done all the mods up to just doing the injectors left. In Iowa we are pretty flat and only run 55 on our county blacktops. But when we travel we go thru South Dakota and Wyoming and the speed limit is 80. What I am looking for is what is the thought process of why one size fits in a usage better than another size. I understand that the smaller size helps with lower rpm's but where does it start to fall on its face in higher rpm's. My thought is at higher rpm's that the injector can't keep up with trying to empty and your just pushing fuel in too late in the power stroke and not getting full fuel efficiency. Also if you are running a 175/80 single shot with the 7 to 1 ratio vs 238/80 with 5 to 1 how much quicker will the 7 to 1 be able to empty the injector. Will the 238 have to run 100 tip to be the same. Just looking for some guidance before I order my injectors. This is just a tow rig that lives on the trailer. I have full 4" turbo back, New 38r, new Adrenalin. Heat rapped up pipes. New fuel system. 8 gauges. After having a new diesel just want this one to run like the new one. It only has 130,000 miles on it and I bought it brand new. 02CCLB 4x6 6spd. It is never leaving so just want to have fun with it.

 

[emev0l]

The best towing injectors are 205/30’s, they’re the smallest hybrids, use the least high pressure oil, and make 20hp less then 238/80’s. If you run 205/30’s with a 38r and a good tow tune you’ll be able to keep your foot into it with no smoke and low EGT’s.

If you woukd rather have more power and don’t mind a little smoke the 80 and 100 nozzles are totally doable.

 

[BS Hauler]

Explain what and the why of the 80 or 100 nozzle does for you over the 30 over nozzle in the same size injector. Is it just in which rpm band that each one has the advantage.

 

[m j]

should allow you to put more fuel in the cylinder at the best timing point.

30 will take more time to get the same amount of fuel in. the discussion would be is the longer shot time better or worser

run what your tuner recommends and likes to tune

 

[BS Hauler]

Okay. Then would in a towing situation running 2,400 to 2,700 rpm's would the 30% or the 100% be better. Or in another words is the 30% going to give you more torque at that rpm's because of the longer injection timing.

 

[ja_cain]

The higher the average operating speed, smaller the injection window is. This is where the larger nozzles shine. They are able to inject larger amounts of fuel in the time window in which cylinder temps/pressures are optimal for the most complete combustion. High PW usually mean high smoke output and inefficient use of a given amount of fuel. It is a compression ignition motor, so combustion is coupled to pressure/temperature in the cylinder. If I find something that visually explains this better than my inadequate written comment, I will post it up.

 

[superpsd]

The larger the nozzle the more critical the tuning. 200cc hybrids seem to be a popular choice for towing and hauling.

 

[Plzstrokeme]

This thread might help you. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73772&highlight=Detuning+large+injectors

 

[m j]

is a 200cc hybrid cheaper then a 238? if not then there is no point to it

 

[ja_cain]

is a 200cc hybrid cheaper then a 238? if not then there is no point to it

$300 difference on Swamps site.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Petro]

I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time with anything less than a 100% nozzle. I can't count on 2 hands the amount of people I know who tow heavy with 100% nozzles and a 38r and never have egt issues. In my experience, guys running 100 and 200% nozzles actually ran cooler when towing heavy because less Pulsewidth was needed to achieve the same result. Any reputable tuner should be able to dial in a 100 or 200% nozzle correctly. The best 7.3 towing setup I ever drove was a 6 speed truck with 300/200's, and an s468. EGT's were never can issue in the lower tunes and holding speed with 24 round bales in tow was as easy as setting the cruise.

 

[ja_cain]

I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time with anything less than a 100% nozzle. I can't count on 2 hands the amount of people I know who tow heavy with 100% nozzles and a 38r and never have egt issues. In my experience, guys running 100 and 200% nozzles actually ran cooler when towing heavy because less Pulsewidth was needed to achieve the same result. Any reputable tuner should be able to dial in a 100 or 200% nozzle correctly. The best 7.3 towing setup I ever drove was a 6 speed truck with 300/200's, and an s468. EGT's were never can issue in the lower tunes and holding speed with 24 round bales in tow was as easy as setting the cruise.

I keep saying it. Get in and get out. High pw means more heat/energy going out the tailpipe and not being used to drive the piston down.

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[smoker00]

My all-time favorite setup was 250/200 and a 66mm h2 with tunes from TW towed Heavy all the time this was years ago but.. it's all in the tune don't be scared of a 100% or 200% they work just fine..

 

[emev0l]

I only tow 10k, never tried heavier, but EGT’s and smoke are not an issue at all.

I’m not sure at what weight or altitude 350/200’s and an s467.7 would become an issue.

 

[Petro]

I believe it was Charles who said he would run a 200% nozzle on a stock AD if it was practical and I agree with him. I just don't understand this fear of bigger nozzles that several Injector builders and tuners have. I've never personally seen any info to support such fears, but I have seen how well a 200% nozzle can be used in a work horse pickup that does nothing but tow heavy. I've been out of the 7.3 game for a couple years and have since gotten into 6 liters, but I'll admit I miss the way a modified 7.3 handles heavy towing.

 

[BS Hauler]

Thank's for the info guys. I have been on the fence between 175/80's and 238/100's. Part of me thinks that the 7 to 1 should be better than the 5 to 1. But thru reading a lot of old threads it looks like even running an Adrenalin pump some guys have trouble holding pressure with them. And most guys running the hybrids are pretty happy with them. It just seems like with the 7.3's that as soon as you go over 2,000 rpm your fuel mileage really goes to crap. My thoughts are that the fuel was just not getting used because it was just too late in the power cycle. But with the hybrid how much do you have to increase the hole size to compensate for the lower amount of push the hybrid has. Another question. Since I have a 38r and I am not going to buy another turbo is the 238 about the limit on fuel or could i go to 250 and still have a pretty clean truck. Here in the midwest we are pretty rural and we don't have problems with law if you are not trying to be show off on smoke.

 

[emev0l]

I’ve actually ran 238/200’s with a 38r on a personal truck for 6 months before I went with an s467.7.

The power would come on violently, if you were turning and put your foot into it the truck would kick sideways back and forth until you pulled your foot out. It was fun down low but it would level out up top. It towed fine if you tow like a normal human, which I don’t. I would have to control my EGT’s with my right foot, now with an s467.7 I just check out EGT’s here and there, it’s not an issue.

If I wanted a dedicated tow rig I would do 205/30’s and an s364.5sxe

If I wanted to have a fun daily that still tows good 238/100’s and an s369sxe

Budget ripper, good daily, light towing 250/200’s s467.7

I daily and tow with 350/200’s and an s467.7 and I like it a lot

If I wanted a truck just for racing and ripping around on the weekends then I would do 350/200’s and a Forced Inductions s476

That being said, my biggest seller is 180/30’s because they’re a bang for the buck injector at $1,395 and the only supporting mods you need are intake, exhaust, and custom tunes. Everyone is super happy with the setup, I reguarly get a call right after they take it for the first rip thanking me saying it’s a whole new truck and then another call 2 weeks down the road thanking me again.

Their truck seems really really slow to me with 180/30’s but they love it

You can make any size injector tow well with the right turbo/turbos

450/400’s can tow great with compound turbos

Just be real with yourself with what you plan to do with the truck and you’ll be happy with the setup

 

[emev0l]

Thank's for the info guys. I have been on the fence between 175/80's and 238/100's. Part of me thinks that the 7 to 1 should be better than the 5 to 1. But thru reading a lot of old threads it looks like even running an Adrenalin pump some guys have trouble holding pressure with them. And most guys running the hybrids are pretty happy with them. It just seems like with the 7.3's that as soon as you go over 2,000 rpm your fuel mileage really goes to crap. My thoughts are that the fuel was just not getting used because it was just too late in the power cycle. But with the hybrid how much do you have to increase the hole size to compensate for the lower amount of push the hybrid has. Another question. Since I have a 38r and I am not going to buy another turbo is the 238 about the limit on fuel or could i go to 250 and still have a pretty clean truck. Here in the midwest we are pretty rural and we don't have problems with law if you are not trying to be show off on smoke.

Whenever there’s a choice between 175/80’s or 238/100’s the answer is always 238/100’s. You will need a fuel system for 238/100’s. I also suggest head studs and 910 valve springs for that setup. A set of Irate intake plenums and a good set of boots and clamps will go a long way, blowing boots off gets old real quick.

 

[DZL JIM]

I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time with anything less than a 100% nozzle. I can't count on 2 hands the amount of people I know who tow heavy with 100% nozzles and a 38r and never have egt issues. In my experience, guys running 100 and 200% nozzles actually ran cooler when towing heavy because less Pulsewidth was needed to achieve the same result. Any reputable tuner should be able to dial in a 100 or 200% nozzle correctly. The best 7.3 towing setup I ever drove was a 6 speed truck with 300/200's, and an s468. EGT's were never can issue in the lower tunes and holding speed with 24 round bales in tow was as easy as setting the cruise.

I respect every individuals real world input. Who am I to question what you have experienced.
What I can say, however, is it's fine if you know less than 10 people who tow successfully with big nozzles. I am on the phone with 10 to 20 people every day talking about what injectors they have, what they like, what they think they need, what they want, etc.
10 to 20 people every day, for the past 13 years. No idea what that amounts to, but it's a lot of people.
And my experience is that nobody with big nozzles likes to tow heavy. They run high EGT's and have tons of smoke.
I repeatedly tell customers if you tow heavy go with as small of a nozzle as possible.
What people need to understand is there are a zillion differences between your truck and every one else's, and each truck needs to be tuned and dialed in individually.
Tuning, tuning, tuning. For the most part. Having a properly sized turbo to match injectors, and good tuning, and you can do whatever you want.
I constantly read post like yours and immediately get jealous. I have been modding my truck for 15 years and I am still trying to get good tunes for it to do what I want. The only time I achieved this was when I had Bill live tune my truck with 238/200%. The truck was great afterwards, with all of it's 380 hp. It needed to be tuned back so much with those big nozzles, what's the point. I can get almost the same power with 180/30%.
No need to lecture me on how things work, I get all the theories. It's just not realistic to run big nozzles for the vast majority out there, for many reasons.

Sorry for the long post. I guess my point is it's easy to read what someone has done with their truck and want the same result. But it's entirely different to actually try and reach that same result.

 

[Petro]

I respect every individuals real world input. Who am I to question what you have experienced.
What I can say, however, is it's fine if you know less than 10 people who tow successfully with big nozzles. I am on the phone with 10 to 20 people every day talking about what injectors they have, what they like, what they think they need, what they want, etc.
10 to 20 people every day, for the past 13 years. No idea what that amounts to, but it's a lot of people.
And my experience is that nobody with big nozzles likes to tow heavy. They run high EGT's and have tons of smoke.
I repeatedly tell customers if you tow heavy go with as small of a nozzle as possible.
What people need to understand is there are a zillion differences between your truck and every one else's, and each truck needs to be tuned and dialed in individually.
Tuning, tuning, tuning. For the most part. Having a properly sized turbo to match injectors, and good tuning, and you can do whatever you want.
I constantly read post like yours and immediately get jealous. I have been modding my truck for 15 years and I am still trying to get good tunes for it to do what I want. The only time I achieved this was when I had Bill live tune my truck with 238/200%. The truck was great afterwards, with all of it's 380 hp. It needed to be tuned back so much with those big nozzles, what's the point. I can get almost the same power with 180/30%.
No need to lecture me on how things work, I get all the theories. It's just not realistic to run big nozzles for the vast majority out there, for many reasons.

Sorry for the long post. I guess my point is it's easy to read what someone has done with their truck and want the same result. But it's entirely different to actually try and reach that same result.

I hear what your saying, but I just can't understand how people can have so many tuning issues. I ran a shop for roughly 5 years, worked on almost exclusively Power Jokes. ( Only moved onto driving truck because I couldn't find good help so I gave up) In that time, I've installed properly close to 20 or 30 sets of larger than stock Injectors in 7.3's. A majority of those Injectors were 100% nozzles and several sets were 200%'s. Out of all of them, I can't remember any having to get more than 2 or 3 revisions TOPS to get their truck to run right. One truck took 4 or 5 revisons but the injectors were a 275/200 stroked A code that were a royal b*tch to get right. Now obviously you deal with probably 20 or 30 sets a month or possibly more, but I still have a hard time understanding what is so difficult about getting tuning dialed in. I bet 70% of the time, the tunes I installed on customers trucks for 100% nozzles were almost perfect the first time out. If tuning couldn't be made to work after a few revisions, there is obviously a mechanical flaw somewhere that needs addressed. This isn't a new platform, most tuners should have a decent idea how to tune a 100% nozzle. I also understand all trucks are different but that hasn't been an issue Ive had or have. Hell, I installed 300/200 in a kids superduty with a STOCK charger, he had swamps custom tunes and towed a stock trailer all over with that truck. Never once had an egt issue in the smaller tunes, it ran just like a stock pickup but better. I'm not trying to suggest you're not having problems, that just hasn't been my experience.