superchargers???

[rossypho]

the reason i want to bypass the SC is most can blow seals or parts after 15psi. yes whipple can make 30psi but that mean instead of using all the power at the bottom i woudl have to get a good size powerband out of the SC. the bypass work with whipple pretty easy there 2 different ones out there electronic and somethign else i cant remeber off my head. but once the turbo has made boost the bypass is suppose to shut off the SC making it take less hp to spin
yes trying to figure out a dual intake or how not to make the air travel into the SC is the trick i am trying to work out. im trying to learn from the cummins guys

 

[rossypho]

ok to update the idea on the custome SC intake manifold idea. the idea is to do like the ls1 guys would do. make flangs from the intake ports on the heads, make a base and then add a place for the air to collect and into each flange to give each cyclinder air.

heres how the air gets pushed down

as you noice these set up the space take up from the top of the block witch isnt capable on the 6.0 due to the fact there are other compontans located right here. so my idea is to make the flanges raised and then build my "space" above the block. this in turn will raise the hight of the SC and in turn make the hood not work, thats ok ill probably get a ram air hood.
somthing a little more like this.

i did find this intake for the 6.0 witch is a much more idea on how high the unit has to be but not have as much of space for air to collect

the idea is to install somethign like this for the twins

if i make a butterfly valve that will keep it closed untill the turbos hit then the supercharger wont feed ait into the back side of the turbos. and only opens the valve when the turbos produce boost. this should also help in adding the bypass vlave on the supercahrger unit


again this is all in theory i am still looking into a lot of forums and trying to find out more about the SC bypass and how turbos supercahrged systems work along with the intake manifold,

this is the rought i am aiming for and the only way i see it working. i might just try a supercharger for now to see how it work (without the bypass activated). say a 408ci gto with a 4.0 whipple said it made 14psi at 2000 rom and 27psi at 4000rpm. this would inable me to run the bypass and also not max out a whipple 4.0 in psi or i belive in wheel rpm spinning. but that also says my pully is the same size. if i get it to work without the turbos i can still modify the custome intake to accept the turbos but dont know if it will work without pushing air back into the SC. my only hope is the SC shoudl still spin in bypass just not compress the air making the turbos air not go into the SC making the intake work just fine.

 

[rossypho]

heres a good pic if what i am thinking of doing with longer flanges. holes cut on the side to acces injectors and other such parts if needed. i dont know yet untill i start trying this out.

 

[rossypho]

better image of the banks! the turbo location just wont happen but thats probably how it will run

 

[FaSSt9602]

My point is, that picture of the Banks engine, I am almost 100% positives that the SC is not feeding into an intake plenum like you want to do. It is only feeding into the turbos. They just happen to be mounting it on top of the engine like that...

Also, a 62mm turbo is only capable of 35-40lbs of boost on it's own, but in a compound set-up, it being the high pressure turbo will create a final boost in upwards of 60psi. So, yes, a SC will only reliably spin 15-20 psi on its own, but in a compound situation, it is capable of much more being fed by a turbo or two. Crazy Carl on that link I posted runs his systems at 60+psi of boost and he doesn't bypass the charger at all. The link I posted is a Whipple 2.3, same idea as you with the 4.0, just less displacement.

Read through some compound threads on here and Compd. I think you need to have a better grasp on the subject before you get started on anything...

holes cut on the side to acces injectors and other such parts if needed. i dont know yet untill i start trying this out.

And here is why I think you REALLY need to spend some time researching and understanding the 6.0 before you tackle something like this...you won't need injector bosses in your custom sheet metal intake.

 

[Cutting-Edge Diesel]

in stead of trying to shut off the supercharger why dont you do what banks did and feed the turbos from the SC. no need to divert the air flow then and you will get a compounding effect.

 

[TurboM700]

better image of the banks! the turbo location just wont happen but thats probably how it will run

Is this for a marine application? At-least that's what the transmission appears to be for.

 

[FaSSt9602]

My guess would be yes based on the turbine outlets...

 

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Use the super to feed a set of compounds and use a bypass valve. That's how carl has it.

Garrett

encrypted with an enigma machine

 

[FaSSt9602]

Any idea how his bypass valve works? He has the SC feeding the turbos until their demand exceeds the SC and then sucks fresh air from another filter source. I wonder if it is like a spring actuator set at a certain vacuum/boost or what...?

 

[rossypho]

yes that duramax is the the marine one
i talked to carl a little bit he told me his SC feeds his big turbo (primary) and the small on is used as the highpressure (secondary) thats what threw me off shouldnt the first on be small and the second one be big?
i mean it would be easy to install the supercharger on top and make a small plenum to feed the turbos. carls first attent with a m90 off a mustang did bypass. its was a silonid, i dont know how the silonid activated at the right psi. i am currently emailing him asking how that set up worked. my question is if the twins use a big as primary and the small as higher boost wouldnt it be better so soruce 2 same sized turbos that will boost from 2000-4000 just take longer (since there the same size) this would give a much bigger power band no?? so like 2 76 on about .96ar.

 

[rossypho]

i just dont want to boost around 60psi in a supercharger, its unhealthy for it... unless if the supercharger only feeds turbos, that means if properally sized pully (2000rpm = 20psi and 4000rpm = 27psi... like i have seen form a 408ci gto) becuase the supercharger is not connected to the intake manifold it doesnt se the same amount of boost. that means i never max out the supercharger like iv been affraid of with a 60psi turbo set up

 

[FaSSt9602]

Yes the SC is going to feed the turbo(s) and act as the low pressure....in itself it will push whatever boost you have it set up to run, ie pulley size. It will feed the turbo(s) to allow them to reach the total boost pressure.

 

[Cutting-Edge Diesel]

yes that duramax is the the marine one
i talked to carl a little bit he told me his SC feeds his big turbo (primary) and the small on is used as the highpressure (secondary) thats what threw me off shouldnt the first on be small and the second one be big?
i mean it would be easy to install the supercharger on top and make a small plenum to feed the turbos. carls first attent with a m90 off a mustang did bypass. its was a silonid, i dont know how the silonid activated at the right psi. i am currently emailing him asking how that set up worked. my question is if the twins use a big as primary and the small as higher boost wouldnt it be better so soruce 2 same sized turbos that will boost from 2000-4000 just take longer (since there the same size) this would give a much bigger power band no?? so like 2 76 on about .96ar.

with compounds the low pressure is the big turbo and it feeds the high pressure, The small one. sounds like he is just feeding his compounds with a supercharger.... (If I read that right)

This is who everyone originally recommended

have the supercharger feeding the turbo and forget the bypass stuff.

 

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Im sorry but if he can't understand how compound turbos work then how is he going to make them work with a supercharger?

Super feeds primary, primary feeds secondary. At idle he is making a few pounds of boost. Instant off-idle response. Once the primary starts sucking in more air than the super can feed the bypass opens and draws air from around the super. That set has low, mid, and high end power. It works all around. If you're going to use a screw type blower then don't blow into it.

Garrett

encrypted with an enigma machine

 

[IdahoF350]

Ross:
Do you understand how positive displacement superchargers work?

You have a 6.0L engine. That means you're consuming roughly 6.0L of air in 2 full revolutions of the crankshaft assuming 100% volumetric efficiency with 0psi additional boost over available atmospheric pressure. Now, in stock form, the engine makes just shy of 30psi with its turbocharger. 30psi being a reference point, sea level is just under 15psi, and the 30psi is on top of that, so it's atmospheric pressure plus two atmospheres, or 3 bar. For each additional atmosphere, the engine will consume an additional 6.0L of air, so at 30psi your engine is consuming 18.0L of air (still just assuming 100% efficiency for arguments sake).

A positive displacement supercharger displaces its measured volume in one revolution. So if the supercharger is a 4.0L compressor, it will move 8.0L of air at idle for a 1:1 drive ratio. Typical drive ratios for these units are between 1.75:1 and 3:1. So for our diesel, let's go 3:1, shall we! That's 24.0L of air on a 6.0L engine, so with a 4.0L Whipple using a 3:1 drive ratio, you should net about 45psi! What the F?

Am I saying a 4.0L Whipple alone might be enough? Not only am I saying that, but because of the lower peak RPM of the diesel, call it 4000rpm, vs the '04 Cobra 3.4 Lysholm I tuned recently that turned 7500rpm, you can run an even more aggressive pulley ratio, maybe 4.0:1, at which point you would see about 60psi!

That 3.4L Lysholm (Lysholm actually makes the Whipple) made 740ish rwhp at 25psi on a 4.6L DOHC engine with ported heads and big cams (both of which increase efficiency as inlet pressure rises and reduce the total restriction and measured boost) all while only driven at about 2.0:1.

Instead of barking up the failure tree, why not figure out a way to effectively charge cool the 4.0 Lysholm and build some long tube headers for your engine so it can breath! You would have no need for the complications of a compound or sequential system of power adders, and you could most certainly make 700hp and low to mid teens for torque, all with a single power adder.

 

[rossypho]

Ross:
Do you understand how positive displacement superchargers work?

You have a 6.0L engine. That means you're consuming roughly 6.0L of air in 2 full revolutions of the crankshaft assuming 100% volumetric efficiency with 0psi additional boost over available atmospheric pressure. Now, in stock form, the engine makes just shy of 30psi with its turbocharger. 30psi being a reference point, sea level is just under 15psi, and the 30psi is on top of that, so it's atmospheric pressure plus two atmospheres, or 3 bar. For each additional atmosphere, the engine will consume an additional 6.0L of air, so at 30psi your engine is consuming 18.0L of air (still just assuming 100% efficiency for arguments sake).

A positive displacement supercharger displaces its measured volume in one revolution. So if the supercharger is a 4.0L compressor, it will move 8.0L of air at idle for a 1:1 drive ratio. Typical drive ratios for these units are between 1.75:1 and 3:1. So for our diesel, let's go 3:1, shall we! That's 24.0L of air on a 6.0L engine, so with a 4.0L Whipple using a 3:1 drive ratio, you should net about 45psi! What the F?

Am I saying a 4.0L Whipple alone might be enough? Not only am I saying that, but because of the lower peak RPM of the diesel, call it 4000rpm, vs the '04 Cobra 3.4 Lysholm I tuned recently that turned 7500rpm, you can run an even more aggressive pulley ratio, maybe 4.0:1, at which point you would see about 60psi!

That 3.4L Lysholm (Lysholm actually makes the Whipple) made 740ish rwhp at 25psi on a 4.6L DOHC engine with ported heads and big cams (both of which increase efficiency as inlet pressure rises and reduce the total restriction and measured boost) all while only driven at about 2.0:1.

Instead of barking up the failure tree, why not figure out a way to effectively charge cool the 4.0 Lysholm and build some long tube headers for your engine so it can breath! You would have no need for the complications of a compound or sequential system of power adders, and you could most certainly make 700hp and low to mid teens for torque, all with a single power adder.

this was awsome. i am just learning SC and how they work with turbos. i have thought of this idea. why not feed the supercharger from the stock intercooler and just run it without any turbos. my only consern with the 60psi are superchargers are only rated at 30psi and 16000rpm (if i remember that right or its 14k) with a 4:1 ratio at 4000rpm that means the screws shoudl be turning 16000rpm witch is the max. if it boost over 30psi what could happen? i guess i woudl have to ask whipple they proabably havent heard of such a thing. it would be awsome to run 700hp on a super charger but again since it feed from a v shaped hole in the bottom should i just make a custome intake at that point or just try and feed it into the stock intake? i might just try and run a supercharger for now. custome headers wouldnt be hard to fab up cost way less then those speeds (or what ever they were) for 1000$ plus im working on getting my weilding license when i get back to the states and i can just get a band saw and a bunch of 2.5/3in tubbing and just go at it till i get it right. would have to do that anyways to add the twins.

i think my plan is if i take this i might just try a whipple 4.0 front fedd only. if i make good power, and then i work on my fuel system more i might try and add twins later just to see how it work.


its not that i dont understand compund turbos i always though the first turbo (small) boost first to give low end rpms. it then feeds into a bigger turbo witch takes longer to spool. but know im being told its backwords.
the small turbo is there to make high boost (is this correct) and the big turbo is actually providing all the hp

 

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

the small turbo(secondary, first to get exhaust, second to get air) does compound the boosted air from the large turbo(primary, second to get exhaust, first to get air) but it also provides low rpm boost. once the primary is spooled up it is providing all the CFM to the engine and the secondary is just compounding the pressure to help force it into the engine.

Garrett

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I'm not sure what all the hoopla is over having a supercharger on these trucks. I know that everyone says its for off idle response - but I have had a very different experience with compounds. I know its a different engine, but hear me out on this. My Duramax (with higher flowing heads) makes 2psi at IDLE with a modified VGT charger and a 3" atmosphere charger. I get the benefit of awesome off idle response, the benefit of compounding the boost to keep the air charge nice and dense and high flowing, and I don't have the added complexity of yet an additional set of parts installed on top of that.

 

[Charles]

If a supercharger is mixed in, I don't understand why it's not the second stage. Then it can never get in the way of anything as the CFM flow in that case wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the turbocharging, and the turbocharging would simply treat the engine like it was the displacement of the supercharger.

All the calculations are perfectly straight forward and no valving is needed whatsoever.