swamps 175/146 or 160/30 injectors (what to go with)

[DocBar]

Mike, thanks for the video. That is an awesome set up you have.

 

[JCart]

It's not that the bigger nozzle needs more icp.... it just needs more icp per ms of pw, or less pw per psi of icp. It moves the fuel much easier, so you need to use less duration to make things happen.

So in trying to better understand this what would happen with 160 or 175 cc injectors and 200 EDM nozzles? Say using 17 degree stock HPOP say with the sig truck? I am wondering how this configuration will reflect torque and HP off idle to 2800 RPM. The notion is to try and develop DD manners, significant HP and Torque reasonable mileage with broad power band.

thanks

 

[lincolnlocker]

So in trying to better understand this what would happen with 160 or 175 cc injectors and 200 EDM nozzles? Say using 17 degree stock HPOP say with the sig truck? I am wondering how this configuration will reflect torque and HP off idle to 2800 RPM. The notion is to try and develop DD manners, significant HP and Torque reasonable mileage with broad power band.

thanks

i asked that question before in another thread but i don't know if it got answered or not.. i wondered if anyone tried it or the reason not to? i thought it would be a good combo like stated above, move the fuel easier with less duration....

 

[Tom S]

So in trying to better understand this what would happen with 160 or 175 cc injectors and 200 EDM nozzles? Say using 17 degree stock HPOP say with the sig truck? I am wondering how this configuration will reflect torque and HP off idle to 2800 RPM. The notion is to try and develop DD manners, significant HP and Torque reasonable mileage with broad power band.

thanks

I am also interested in some thoughts along those lines but also with some smaller nozzles as well.

 

[mandkole]

Im guessing that one of you guys will need to get real close to a tuner and be one of the first to try it. I'll be watching...:thumbsup:

 

[JCart]

Ok well if we're dreaming then how about this:
160cc 150/200% Nozzles
Max Torque 1800-2300 RPM
Max HP at 2600 RPM
450 HP
900 Lbs Ft of T
17-20 miles per gallon.
Manageable EGTs
....

 

[Charles]

Im guessing that one of you guys will need to get real close to a tuner and be one of the first to try it. I'll be watching...:thumbsup:

Negatory...

You tune based on nozzle, so any program written for a 200% EDM nozzle will drive around exactly the same whether the injector capacity is 150cc or 550cc.

The only thing that will change is the power you make once the injector is at full stroke, and even that won't matter much past 250cc for most injectors if the program is written well.

If you want to run a smaller displacement injector with a bigger nozzle, you just grab programs for the nozzle. As should always be the case. Your tuner should never need to know your displacement, only your nozzle in terms of manners driving around.

I would run a 200% nozzle on a stock AD injector with no reservations. It would probably pull close to 400rwhp if I had to guess, and run crystal clean and cool as hell.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

I am no tuner such as yourself. But you are stating that there is no changes in a tune required depending on if you are running a 200cc/200% or a 400cc/200% injector. Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

 

[kampy]

Negatory...
If you want to run a smaller displacement injector with a bigger nozzle, you just grab programs for the nozzle. As should always be the case. Your tuner should never need to know your displacement, only your nozzle in terms of manners driving around.

I would run a 200% nozzle on a stock AD injector with no reservations. It would probably pull close to 400rwhp if I had to guess, and run crystal clean and cool as hell.

Might be a stupid question but can you get enough oil through the poppet fast enough on an A code to fully utilize a 200% nozzle? Asking because I've been told you can't.

Tim or Dave(Golfer) can probably answer this as well.

Thanks

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Might be a stupid question but can you get enough oil through the poppet fast enough on an A code to fully utilize a 200% nozzle? Asking because I've been told you can't.

Tim or Dave(Golfer) can probably answer this as well.

Thanks

There are two types of poppets, AA, AB, AC style and AD, AE style(factory injectors, Alliant does not follow this rule). Neither one has given me a single issue with getting every last drop from a 200% nozzle. But i also do not build anything with a 200% larger than a 300cc. Its a waste.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Negatory...

You tune based on nozzle, so any program written for a 200% EDM nozzle will drive around exactly the same whether the injector capacity is 150cc or 550cc.

The only thing that will change is the power you make once the injector is at full stroke, and even that won't matter much past 250cc for most injectors if the program is written well.

If you want to run a smaller displacement injector with a bigger nozzle, you just grab programs for the nozzle. As should always be the case. Your tuner should never need to know your displacement, only your nozzle in terms of manners driving around.

I would run a 200% nozzle on a stock AD injector with no reservations. It would probably pull close to 400rwhp if I had to guess, and run crystal clean and cool as hell.

so has this been done yet or not? if this is the case then whats the point of having all the other size nozzles? why wouldn't this already be done by all injector builders?

 

[Charles]

I am no tuner such as yourself. But you are stating that there is no changes in a tune required depending on if you are running a 200cc/200% or a 400cc/200% injector. Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

In terms of driving manners... no. The truck will behave exactly the same way driving around with either of those as neither will be going full stroke and the nozzles are identical.

Now if you swapped codes, like hybrid to A code or B code, you might be tempted to make some small changes, but probably not anything mandatory.

 

[Charles]

Might be a stupid question but can you get enough oil through the poppet fast enough on an A code to fully utilize a 200% nozzle? Asking because I've been told you can't.

Tim or Dave(Golfer) can probably answer this as well.

Thanks

A codes are a waste of time. You can't get enough oil through an A-code to keep up with the sh*t-ass nozzles we had 10 years ago. They will run, and make power, but not as well, and not as much because the intensifier piston will always be slow to drop, requiring more oil volume per mm of travel than any other piston.

It's like asking if a 10mm P7100 will work as well with a set of 5 x 20 nozzles as a 13mm pump. Negative...

Too slow...

 

[Charles]

so has this been done yet or not? if this is the case then whats the point of having all the other size nozzles? why wouldn't this already be done by all injector builders?

Myself and a few others constantly wonder the point of the other nozzles...

Idle quality, startup smoke and hazing are the excuses. I don't apparently care as much about that as some people do.

 

[lincolnlocker]

10-4, thank you sir!

 

[kampy]

There are two types of poppets, AA, AB, AC style and AD, AE style(factory injectors, Alliant does not follow this rule). Neither one has given me a single issue with getting every last drop from a 200% nozzle. But i also do not build anything with a 200% larger than a 300cc. Its a waste.

Thanks Tim, didn't realize there was a difference in poppets till you went to a B code.

Forget the hybrids for a second, I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been, the question came from several that have been asking the questions about using larger nozzle sizes with 160-175 stock P+B injectors. We keep hearing a 200 nozzle is the only way to go. My example...175cc is plenty of fuel for what I need but I'd appreciate lower EGTs and a little more top end power if I could get it with a 200% nozzle. I was wondering if you could get the oil in fast enough to get the fuel out without dropping injection pressure with the 7:1 ratio. Charles answered it a little farther down the thread, you can't. I guess thats why most builders don't go over an 80 on a straight A code injector.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

In terms of driving manners... no. The truck will behave exactly the same way driving around with either of those as neither will be going full stroke and the nozzles are identical.

Now if you swapped codes, like hybrid to A code or B code, you might be tempted to make some small changes, but probably not anything mandatory.

So you would want your SOI the same when running the above listed examples?? I find this almost imposable to believe. There is no way you would want to start the 200cc injector as early as the 400cc injector. And as rpm increases there would be i think a drastic difference in the SOI going through thr RPM band on the two.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Originally Posted by kampy
Might be a stupid question but can you get enough oil through the poppet fast enough on an A code to fully utilize a 200% nozzle? Asking because I've been told you can't.

Tim or Dave(Golfer) can probably answer this as well.

Thanks

A codes are a waste of time. You can't get enough oil through an A-code to keep up with the sh*t-ass nozzles we had 10 years ago. They will run, and make power, but not as well, and not as much because the intensifier piston will always be slow to drop, requiring more oil volume per mm of travel than any other piston.

It's like asking if a 10mm P7100 will work as well with a set of 5 x 20 nozzles as a 13mm pump. Negative...

Too slow...

Kampy,

That is a loaded question and i dont think you got the clearest answer.

First off an A code for example a 250cc A code injector will give the same stroke on the same cut spec piston as a 350cc hybrid injector. What that means is the oil side of the injector can be the exact same.

So with that, yes the poppet can flow enough oil to use a 200% nozzle. Been done works, story over. Problem is some people can not get an A code to fully fuel when the demand is asked for. But then again i had several hybrids do the same. Test them at low demand and they work fine, push them to the limits and they fall flat on their face.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

so has this been done yet or not? if this is the case then whats the point of having all the other size nozzles? why wouldn't this already be done by all injector builders?

Simple, a 200% nozzle is just not for everyone.

 

[Charles]

So you would want your SOI the same when running the above listed examples?? I find this almost imposable to believe. There is no way you would want to start the 200cc injector as early as the 400cc injector.

Explain why you would want to alter the timing of the injection event based on the travel the plunger might cycle through 2ms later?

Lets say you're driving along at .9ms of pw with a 200% EDM. NEITHER injector is even CLOSE to full stroke.... so tell me why you would have the 400cc injector doing anything different? Say you roll on the power and start pulling hard, lets say 1.6ms. Neither injector is full stroke still....

Now lets say you ask for some duration above the point where the 200cc injector goes full stroke, say 2.5ms. What changes??? The 200cc injector simply hits bottom stroke and no more fuel is injected, and the 400cc injector keeps on injecting.

Now if you add timing to the 400cc injector, pick up power and still come in under your target cylinder pressure then you should have been running that SAME TIMING on the 200cc injector in the first place!!!

LOL


The only exception here would be drowning the cylinder with fuel (think mod class puller here) where excessive timing can be run since the mixture will not likely flash off quickly since there is always unburned fuel to soften the burn. In a case like that a lower injection quantity might not keep the combustion "soft" enough, and you'd want to lighten off the timing accordingly.

And as rpm increases there would be i think a drastic difference in the SOI going through thr RPM band on the two.

Why???

They both inject fuel at exactly the same time, in the same way, with the same patterns, droplet sizes, so on and so forth.