swamps 175/146 or 160/30 injectors (what to go with)

[cjfarm11]

SO...im running a set of Full Force Single shot 205cc with 100% nozzles. How would the use of a 200% nozzle affect my performance. What is to be gained or lost or is it even possible?

 

[lincolnlocker]

less pw to make the same hp your at now which in return uses less hpoil... i think.

live life full throttle

 

[Charles]

less pw to make the same hp your at now which in return uses less hpoil... i think.

live life full throttle

If you inject the same quantity of fuel, then injector code per code, you use the same quantity of oil.

What you gain is horsepower, response, EGT control, smoke control and general ability to blow the tires off at will with a 200EDM nozzle on a 200+cc injector.

 

[lincolnlocker]

holy crap i cant keep this straight. so regardless of nozzle size, you inject the same amount of fuel with the same pw in the same injector... whether its a 100% or a 200%... it just does it quicker?

 

[lincolnlocker]

so 200/100 with 1ms pw vs 200/200 with 1ms pw with the same icp will inject the same amount of fuel but pick up hp, and lower egts?

 

[Charles]

You said:

less pw to make the same hp your at now which in return uses less hpoil... i think.

I responded:

If you inject the same quantity of fuel, then injector code per code, you use the same quantity of oil.

What you gain is horsepower, response, EGT control, smoke control and general ability to blow the tires off at will with a 200EDM nozzle on a 200+cc injector.

Now we're here:

so 200/100 with 1ms pw vs 200/200 with 1ms pw with the same icp will inject the same amount of fuel but pick up hp, and lower egts?

Answer:

Obviously if you hold the duration and pressure constant but increase the orifice size you will not be injecting the same fuel quantity... you will be injecting more.... and using more oil for any given hydraulic ratio.

If you keep the fuel quantity the same, and increase the orifice size, that would entail removing pulsewidth as you initially stated. If the fuel injected remains the same, then so does the oil volume consumed. The instantaneous oil demand is higher, but I don't know just exactly how that makes a damn just yet since we have no accumulation to speak of anyway.

 

[lincolnlocker]

ok... thanks again.

 

[cjfarm11]

SO.....if i ran a 200% nozzle it would benefit me in most all ways? Does it make the engine louder? How about Fuel economy?

 

[Charles]

SO.....if i ran a 200% nozzle it would benefit me in most all ways? Does it make the engine louder? How about Fuel economy?

The only downside to a larger nozzle is lower power output efficiency. You give up efficiency at lower power to gain efficiency at higher power.

Someone needs to make a graph with efficiencies plotted for each nozzle so people can see the points of overlap where multiple nozzles will all make the same power at various points of efficiency, as well as where some nozzles cease to be capable of making certain power outputs.

 

[mandkole]

The only downside to a larger nozzle is lower power output efficiency. You give up efficiency at lower power to gain efficiency at higher power.

This is what I thought and where I was hoping this conversation would go.

If I understand correctly, if you have a towing application and running lower output tuning often, big nozzles would have efficiency issues (and lack of fine fuel control). I've viewed the big nozzle to be for big power applications, and it seems that is still the case. That said, can we agree that there is no benefit to run a 200%on a small A code (160-175) on a 400-450hp work truck application?

Not being argumentative, but trying to progress conversation on some of these topics...

 

[cjfarm11]

Understandable. Just was curious if a larger nozzle would help in my application.

 

[Old OutLaw]

and one more thing....

in a towing application, it doesn't matter one bit how much power you can make... the only thing that really matters, is how much power you can COOL. if you're on a long hill, grossing 21,000 lbs, and the water temp keeps going up with the fan on, you WILL get your foot out of it or melt the engine, end of story.

so you can have all the huge nozzles - injectors you want, but for a person that's gonna tow a lot, it's basically just wasted $$$ for high dollar parts ya don't need....

 

[Charles]

and one more thing....

in a towing application, it doesn't matter one bit how much power you can make... the only thing that really matters, is how much power you can COOL. if you're on a long hill, grossing 21,000 lbs, and the water temp keeps going up with the fan on, you WILL get your foot out of it or melt the engine, end of story.

so you can have all the huge nozzles - injectors you want, but for a person that's gonna tow a lot, it's basically just wasted $$$ for high dollar parts ya don't need....

Actually the bigger the nozzle the MORE power you will make for a given EGT...

Right now my truck with the 400% nozzles is only running ~1250 degrees steady-state, WOT. And that is certainly in excess of 500rwhp at that temp.

Towing guys actually need the bigger nozzles. You don't see any factory built tow trucks with tiny ass nozzles do you? Look at the factory nozzle on a DT-530 for instance.

The reality is that the smaller the nozzle, the faster you will have to come out of the pedal due to heat.

A 200% nozzle will tow the driveline clean out from under a superduty before the engine ever even breaks a sweat. I've also done it with a 100% nozzle, but the tuning needs more help. A 200 will see the u-joints, trans and R&P in HELL before the engine ever breaks 1100 degrees....

 

[Charles]

This is what I thought and where I was hoping this conversation would go.

If I understand correctly, if you have a towing application and running lower output tuning often, big nozzles would have efficiency issues (and lack of fine fuel control).

How is towing lower output??? Towing you need ~300rwhp continuously. That is a very high demand. Small nozzles cannot deliver on that goal. The injection duration is simply too broad.

People who need small nozzles (below 100) are people who want to optimize the engine for driving around empty and idling. Period. If you plan to use more than 200rwhp for any period of time, then the smaller nozzle is going to be less efficient than a 100, 200 or 300. If you plan to make 300+ for any amount of time then a 100 is going to be less efficient than a 200 or 300. If you want a super clean 400+, then the 300 and 400 will start to creep up on the 200 and become more efficient.

The point of peak relative efficiency for each nozzle is WELL below the absolute power capacity of that nozzle.

As I stated before, this is why a STOCK 2xxhp DT-530 comes with a nozzle that we make over 500rwhp with.

They needed the fuel to hit the bowl NOW, so that 2xxhp could be made without burning the world down.

I've viewed the big nozzle to be for big power applications, and it seems that is still the case. That said, can we agree that there is no benefit to run a 200%on a small A code (160-175) on a 400-450hp work truck application?

Aside from the fact that they come in the engine, and in that sense they are free.... I don't see the point of an A-code for anything.

Not being argumentative, but trying to progress conversation on some of these topics...

 

[cjfarm11]

So bigger nozzles on the same cc injectors will tow better?

 

[mandkole]

How is towing lower output??? Towing you need ~300rwhp continuously.

I was actually thinking in terms of tow typically being a lower output tune. I would agree, its the highest demand on the motor and powertrain.

As I stated before, this is why a STOCK 2xxhp DT-530 comes with a nozzle that we make over 500rwhp with.

Although its been discussed, I had not been thinking in the terms of the larger engine MD truck applications--they are making a lot of torque.

needed the fuel to hit the bowl NOW

Just to be sure Im tracking, much of the EGT heat is really coming from the late burn out the pipe, correct? Earlier/faster shot in the stroke = cool


thanks for the discussion.. its helpful

 

[Old OutLaw]

OK, figuring all that is Fact for the moment, my question would be if I put 200% nozzles on my 180cc injectors,
the the EGT's would be lower at the SAME power output, at the same load, at the same ambient temperature? with the same tuning ?

if so. I need 200% nozzles, and BADLY !!

right now, I can keep the Pyrometer cool, at about 20 lbs Manifold Pressure, but the water temp just keeps going up if it's above about 80 degrees ambient....

(this is continuous on a 6-7 % grade with 21,000 lbs @ about 55-60 mph)

correspondingly, if the air is nice and cool, say down around 50-60 deg., nothing heats.....

I figured it was just a situation of not cool enough air to cool it....

 

[907DAVE]

You might have a cooling system issue.

 

[cjfarm11]

I agree i have never had a water temp issue towing heavy. Sure the fan comes on one in awhile but never continously.

 

[Old OutLaw]

yep I sure do, the cooling system is not Large enough capacity to cool 300-350 hp continuously, a I think, ....at least that's the impression
I was under until Charles started talkin' about less heat with larger nozzles......

Now, I'm wonderin' if that could possibly translate into less WATER temperature heat as well....... it stand to reason from what he said, that
if it will cool off the Pyro , even if just a hundred degrees or thereabouts, that SHOULD cool down the water as well, Yes ? ?