Truck home from Ford and say I need new engine...

[sonic blue l]

oh and telling him to drive his truck with a suspect failed turbo is moronic and could result in personal injury or death.

the dealership is telling him to replace the engine either because:

- the customer does not want to spend more money past the general ids, crankcase pressure test you can do.
- the engine shows signs of dusting so they decide there is no point in doing a manual compression test as the engine is dusted
- the engine has excessive engine hours with poor maintenance, the turbo bearings are so coked that the turbos barely turn
- the fuel system is full of **** and its more cost effective due to the fuel system combined with elevated crankcase pressure issue
- its a safer bet to replace the engine vs follow all ford diagnostic procedures as they are time consuming and may result with the same conclusion
- they don't have a clue where to go from here, and want to play it safe and recommend complete engine replacement

 

[drunk on diesel]

I missed that, my bad.

 

[drunk on diesel]

FWIW, I would want to see/verify that for myself vs. taking a dealer's word for it. He has a clean blackstone report.

I'd take it to a trusted independent shop and diag from there. Dealer is the worst place to take it unless you know for a fact that it's a good tech and service dept

 

[Dzchey21]

I agree on the dealer ship being a not good place to go. Most dealer mechanics are really parts changers that are brainwashed by ford to do the bare minimum. Most don't get paid more than an hour to trouble shoot anything so if there is no code to point them in the right direction then forget it.

 

[AirFishAutomotive]

The price they quoted you isnt far off. We have a customer with a 6.4 and it hydrolocked . The truck was on the road and they took it to the closes dealer and they told him that it needed a motor as well. They were quoted 22k. Needless to say they are getting it towed down to us to diag.

 

[rrod]

A relative compression test and relative power balance are just that, relative to one another. So if the cylinders are worn evenly a relative compression test will pass. If all injectors are contributing the same, they will show even.

Now max spec of crankcase pressure is 10" h2o. Next step is to verify if it's a base engine concern, which would be a manual compression test. Now if that passes then you isolate the turbos, aka run truck so there is no exhaust pressure teaching the turbos. As if you have bad turbo seals then the exhaust pressure will drive crankcase pressure up. Now let's say you have 20" h2o, run the truck with turbos isolated and still have 10" h2o. Well now you had high crankcase pressure which caused the turbo seals to fail in the first place .

So bottom line is proper diag does not just mean throw turbos on it as you have to determine why the turbo seals failed in the first place.

Problem is, to do proper diag is not cheap. I actually jus worked on a truck with a similar situation. 20" h2o, manual compression down some, but still aceptable. Isolate turbos and crankcase pressure dropped to 10". Authorized to remove valve covers and worn rocker arms. Vehicle was not well maintained so customer decided to have truck reassembled and truck to auction. (Rocker arms can go plenty of miles and hrs without wear if the truck is properly maintained, even with 100% emission components intact)

I asked the dealer the next day after posting on this thread and he said they did a relative as well as manual test and they were even. Not sure how much I believe him but if it was true that would be less of a cause for concern. Also how do you isolate the turbo's? I have no idea how that is done.

Unfortunately, I have no history of the truck other than oasis report that shows the turbo's were replace at 78,000mi and at 86,000miles which are the 2 most recent repairs from last year and the largest on the truck from Oasis report. Something caused the turbo's to go within 8,000mi. Now we are over year later and 18,000 more miles on the truck and it seems like another turbo seal leak however something seems to be causing it. If it was something to do with high crankcase pressure then that could be it but wouldn't that be something Ford checked before installing a turbo twice within 8,000mi?
I've so far changed oil immediately after buying it along with all oil and fuel filters.

The next step would be a manual compression test, if the relative passed and showed the same after a few tries, then realistically you could get away with only doing one cylinder on each bank. (Help keep costs down)

If the op doesn't know, basically a relative compression test is the scan tool monitoring crankshaft speed while the engine is cranked over (without running) thus a low compression cylinder will cause a speed increase in the crankshaft). This is why it's called relative as it only compares the cylinders to one another, but does not actually tell you what the compression is. This is why you can have a worn out/dusted engine that will pass a relative compression test. Now have a hole in a piston, damaged valves, broken rocker arm , etc and it will flag that cylinder. (Well in theory as I've had it pick the wrong cylinder before, but that's not that's not really the point as a failure of relative just means one should perfom a manual test to verify, just like how high crankcase pressure needs to be verified with a manual compression to either condem or rule out base engine)

They did the relative which was even and supposedly did the manual test as well. How am I able to test one on each bank? Do you mean taking out glow plug from one cylinder on each side and test?

Problem with that is if it's the intake side turbo seal it could run away. If I suspected turbo(s) I'd check the lower charge air cooler for excessive amounts of oil. If it runs out that is bad, now if you live in a high humidity area don't be fooled with the water that runs out that us dark and oily. (Looks like oil, but it's thin like water)

And crack the downpipe or look for oil seapage at the downpipe. If the dpf gets flooded with oil, you can get flames if it goes into regen.

I've checked my CAC arm before taking it to any shop. The CAC upper arm was fairly clean. I'll try to pop the lower arm off later today. I also looked in the intake arm and that was clean. I've checked play in the turbo connected to the air intake and it looked good from what I can tell.

So far I'm experiencing very little oil loss to the point I still haven't had to put any in since the oil change. Truck seems to be running quite good. I don't notice anything out of the blue except that light smoke on and off when I had the straight pipe.

 

[drunk on diesel]

how much did they charge you for all of that diag? did they line item each procedure? how much did they charge you for a "manual" mechanical compression test?

I wasn't suggesting drive the thing to China and back, I was literally saying run the engine and watch oil level. We had one that had a fairly non-descript oil/fuel smoke that would come and go, so we literally just let it idle for about 6hrs, checking the oil every 30 min or so. it was steadily going down.

It passed relative compression, blowby through the oil fill was normal

put two turbos on it, and it's running great 6 months later w/ no smoke

here's one... what tune are you running? is it one that cycles the EGR?

 

[sonic blue l]

first for all they guys going off on dealership techs, well I find that funny considering we get the information long before you guys do. We also have to follow rules.

Anyway I don't care about that as ive seen moron ford techs and moron non ford techs.

Seen a ford master diesel tech that asked me if a 7.3 has glow plugs or an intake heater. (he saw the heater element in the 7.3 intake and wondered if that was for starting).

I also just had a ford certified diesel tech ask me how to test glow plugs.

On the other hand I had another diesel shop send me a diesel as it was hydro locked and needed and engine. (6.7 ford, sent to us as the other shop said it should be under warranty. btw ford doesn't give two ****s what an aftermarket shop says (relatively speaking of course). Guess they don't know **** about batteries and a bcm controlled starter motor. basically it needed batteries, not an engine.

Also seen a guy replaced and engine for a bad fuel lift pump. (6.0l) (not a ford dealership) Towed in to the ford dealership as customer did not like how the vehicle ran the same before and after engine replacement. FYI just because a fuel pump runs does not mean its pumping fuel. (hence why ford has diagnostic rules. now whether people follow them or not is the problem)

A number of 6l's with head and block surfaces that were roloc'd to ****, the head and block should not have a cross hatch like a cylinder wall.

Bottom line talk to the tech, if he sounds like he doesn't know ****, don't let him work on your truck. Your the customer, your paying, make sure you know how your spending you money and why. Also if you feel the time is excessive have them prove to you why the time is justified. Any reputable place will have no problem showing you the flat rate book they base their labour time off of. If their are extra's, such as seized bolts, etc have it explained.

The above really pisses me off, as it currently happens at my current place of employment, morons who don't know **** over charger for their incompetence.

Point of my rambling is don't be afraid to ask questions and proof for where you money is going.

 

[sonic blue l]

I asked the dealer the next day after posting on this thread and he said they did a relative as well as manual test and they were even. Not sure how much I believe him but if it was true that would be less of a cause for concern. Also how do you isolate the turbo's? I have no idea how that is done.

Unfortunately, I have no history of the truck other than oasis report that shows the turbo's were replace at 78,000mi and at 86,000miles which are the 2 most recent repairs from last year and the largest on the truck from Oasis report. Something caused the turbo's to go within 8,000mi. Now we are over year later and 18,000 more miles on the truck and it seems like another turbo seal leak however something seems to be causing it. If it was something to do with high crankcase pressure then that could be it but wouldn't that be something Ford checked before installing a turbo twice within 8,000mi?
I've so far changed oil immediately after buying it along with all oil and fuel filters.



They did the relative which was even and supposedly did the manual test as well. How am I able to test one on each bank? Do you mean taking out glow plug from one cylinder on each side and test?



I've checked my CAC arm before taking it to any shop. The CAC upper arm was fairly clean. I'll try to pop the lower arm off later today. I also looked in the intake arm and that was clean. I've checked play in the turbo connected to the air intake and it looked good from what I can tell.

So far I'm experiencing very little oil loss to the point I still haven't had to put any in since the oil change. Truck seems to be running quite good. I don't notice anything out of the blue except that light smoke on and off when I had the straight pipe.

You want the facts, the reading of the compression test. What were the manual compression readings? Take a brand new engine, it will pass relative compression even, manual reading of approx. 380 psi. Take a dusted engine, it will pass relative compression evenly, it will also read even at say 150 psi. 150 psi will not support combustion. You should be above 350 psi, absolute min would be 300 psi. Anything below 350 and id be concerned.

Now if they cant give you an exact reading they are full of ****. I will not do a manual compression test under normal diesel diag, as it would be an extra charge.

You need a actual reading of manual compression before you know whether its worth while to isolate the turbos. If the truck has had multiple turbos and has high crankcase pressure, I would be concerned. There is no reason you should be replacing multiple turbos, unless someone is shoving sticks into them, running Mazola oil instead of engine oil, etc.

If compression is good, then you would go to the turbo isolation root, if not, then you need to find out why compression is low.

 

[drunk on diesel]

I see so much incompetence at dealers and private shops, it has really turned me off from the industry as a whole...

this forum is full of awesome shops and vendors, but they are very few and far between across the nation

 

[rrod]

Thanks for all the great replies on this thread. I posted a video of the blow by in another thread.
I was on the 250 Spartan tune. Truck ran very strong on this tune and seemed way faster than my 6.0 even with my engine situation.

Lastly I asked this in the new thread but I'll ask here too... Truck is covered by endurance after-market bumper to bumper warranty. They don't covered worn or burnt parts. So anyone (mechanic or consumer) what is the best way to get it warrantied?? Driver it until it breaks completely? Be honest with them and try to see if they will reason or last thing (and least wanted) would be to sue them for denied coverage if they want to be that way.

 

[Sideswipe505]

If you're concerned about the health of your engine, take it in and get a manual compression test done. Stand there and watch them do it, make sure they're actually doing it since it sounds like a bunch of sheisty ***s you're dealing with. If compression comes back normal, yank the turbos and have them looked at. Better than sitting here speculating all day.