Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

ja_cain

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I suggested a long time ago having a place where we could upload files to be shared.

Things would jump forward in a flash if that happened. I think tiny nozzles would vaporize quickly. With multiple people having certain parts of files nailed it would be easy to combine aspects from each and quickly get very nice files.

That would be awesome! BTW, I read a little bit of that 6.4 thread you were commenting on and everything you said just really resonated with me about getting in and out when conditions are most favorable.
 

m j

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I suggested a long time ago having a place where we could upload files to be shared.

Things would jump forward in a flash if that happened. I think tiny nozzles would vaporize quickly. With multiple people having certain parts of files nailed it would be easy to combine aspects from each and quickly get very nice files.

how big are the files? small enough to be hosted on the 'free' webspace an ISP provides with an account? or is a dropbox shared folder the way to go?
 

Charles

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That would be awesome! BTW, I read a little bit of that 6.4 thread you were commenting on and everything you said just really resonated with me about getting in and out when conditions are most favorable.

Some dumb asses can't be helped. The 6.4 crowd is even worse than us about tuning. Way worse.

So many people can't understand that injecting the same quantity of fuel can be done so many different ways with such dramatic differences to power and efficiency.

The 6.4 was specified with a nozzle that will support right at 600rwhp as delivered, yet the truck only makes mid 300's. That right there tells you how much oversize a nozzle needs to EFFICIENTLY make power. Right now I'm running a 6 to 700hp nozzle at somewhere in the 350 to 450rwhp range I bet.

Coincidence that my nozzle also runs cool and clean like a stock truck?

Nope.
 

sootie

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Some dumb asses can't be helped. The 6.4 crowd is even worse than us about tuning. Way worse.

So many people can't understand that injecting the same quantity of fuel can be done so many different ways with such dramatic differences to power and efficiency.

The 6.4 was specified with a nozzle that will support right at 600rwhp as delivered, yet the truck only makes mid 300's. That right there tells you how much oversize a nozzle needs to EFFICIENTLY make power. Right now I'm running a 6 to 700hp nozzle at somewhere in the 350 to 450rwhp range I bet.

Coincidence that my nozzle also runs cool and clean like a stock truck?

Nope.

i assume i am one of those "dumbasses" from the six four thread. i wasnt challenging your theory(because i actually agree with you), i was stating that is was not helping the OP achieve his goals. just to clarify...
 

ja_cain

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I'm wondering what the tipping point is on a 200% hybrid with regards to fuel atomization/combustion efficiency relative to an A code with say an 80 or 100% nozzle? In other words, when do you reach a point of diminishing returns on a 80 or 100% percent nozzle and at what ICP do you achieve similar atomization on the large nozzle (200%) hybrid?

Charles, how much of a timing adjustment are you making with your truncated injection pw at different rpm's? I know you stated that you didn't have to lead in as much since you are able to get enough fuel in less time, but was wondering what kind of timing adjustments you were making. Thanks again for all of the info/insight you have been providing.
 

lincolnlocker

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Thanks man. Looks like PHP offers a package deal with a Hydra for just under $700. I'm pretty much sold on the Hydra, but want to package it with the Minotaur so everything is much cheaper. I'll hit up jd3020 for some advice. Thanks!

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no problem bud

live life full throttle
 

JD3020

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dont specifically need a hydra but most ts style chips work.. hydra is just so nice for emailing tunes. and the amount of tunes held.. but im sure bill at php used to sell a starter kit.. jd3020 just started tuning a year or so ago. check with him how he got rollin..

live life full throttle

Hell i wish it was only a year ago, just opened up Minotaur and i haven't even modded a tune since August 2014. :(


But i don't even know how i started, had no plans to start tuning when i did. Just happened to have bought a set of used 250/200%'s hybrids at one point, and was running Matts tunes for my old 175/100% a-codes. Saw a decent deal for a used Minotaur "set-up" so i bought it instead of trying to get good tunes for a mostly stock OBS rocking 250/200%'s. Just spent a LOT of time reading a billion threads on here, PSN, and the older sites. I absolutely hated the base tunes PHP sent me, so i started with stock file and kept tweaking it. I have a scangauge but no way to datalog, so i'd just drive the truck while keeping a close eye on my gauges and go from there. Eventually got it to the point where i had one tune that would make some power while running super clean and maintain 3100psi, and the truck has lived in that tune ever since. Spent all of last year as my work truck towing equipment and **** everywhere, but still had the ability to throw me back into the seat even though it weighs 8klbs. As much as i love towing with my F-450, i miss the power my 200%'s had with a load. There were several times when i'd pass cars on the on-ramp with an excavator or skid steer in tow. LOL

I don't drive it anymore though, think it has a hurt cylinder(not surprised as i run it hard), and the last time i was under the hood i noticed 3 of the 4 up-pipe bolts were snapped off at the collector. Engine bay is pure black from the soot, and i actually get smoke rolling up around the hood when i get on the throttle. Still runs pretty damn good though, aside from not building any boost.
 

cleatus12r

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Hey buddy, been awhile! This thread is turning into one heck of a reunion!

For those who dont know Cody, hes was Bills right hand man for some time and is one of the most knowledgeable tuning/ diesel/ truck guys around. He has taught me everything I know about the way these things think and has helped me out of a pinch on many occasions. Great dude! Glad to see you're still around!


Thanks Dave. I appreciate the kind words. Take care, man!
 

TyCorr

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That would be awesome! BTW, I read a little bit of that 6.4 thread you were commenting on and everything you said just really resonated with me about getting in and out when conditions are most favorable.

Which thread? I like to read.
 

Charles

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I'm wondering what the tipping point is on a 200% hybrid with regards to fuel atomization/combustion efficiency relative to an A code with say an 80 or 100% nozzle? In other words, when do you reach a point of diminishing returns on a 80 or 100% percent nozzle and at what ICP do you achieve similar atomization on the large nozzle (200%) hybrid?

Up to a 100% nozzle I would say your power goal should be sub 300rwhp. If you intend to make more power than that and do it often efficiency would be higher with a 200. My 550 was running the exact same set of injectors that are in my crew cab now and they had nowhere near the towing power that they do now with the 200's. The turbo came over as well, so the setup is identical on another motor with 200's vs 100's. The part that hangs people up is that just because a nozzle CAN make up to xxxx horsepower, doesn't mean it's efficient doing it. Kind of like a turbo that can be pushed until flames are blowing out the discharge.... a larger turbo would run in the same setup and do it much cooler.

Charles, how much of a timing adjustment are you making with your truncated injection pw at different rpm's? I know you stated that you didn't have to lead in as much since you are able to get enough fuel in less time, but was wondering what kind of timing adjustments you were making. Thanks again for all of the info/insight you have been providing.

I want to say that at low load my timing is around 10 (in the map) pretty much across the board until upward of 2500rpm, and as load increases it drops down to maybe 8 or so, again until around 2500 or so where it starts ramping up a bit. I haven't watched it on a scope to tell you what it actually is, but I have the maximum capped at 28, which is totally tame. The cap acts on the actual timing, not the little number in the map. It includes all adders and offsets.

I towed a little Cat 305 mini-ex and a little LS185 new holland today on a 25' dual tandem gooseneck and it pulls hard. Surges the piss out of the 38R though. It will stand up and pull hard at 1500 to 1600rpm in OD without smoking.

At one point during the heat of the day I had a dramatic change in pulsewidth, as evidenced by the engine sounding muffled and me seeing smoke in the mirror. I need to get my temperature modifiers in check. Clearly I missed one....

That's why I generally hate temperature modifiers and wish they would all die.
 

Tim @ P.I.S.

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Charles I'm not going to argue this point with you again, but someone needs to put some disclaimer in here.

What you have for a combo will not work for most people. I have been through this sooooo many times.

When we get calls about how a customer needs us to look at their injectors because they are having smoke and egt issues like crazy and their tuner tells them it's their injectors.

MOST people don't need a 200% for a tow truck or simple daily driver. Can they make them work? Absolutely they can. But I have worked with many top tuners for YEARS! Some are scared to put a customer in anything with more than a 30% nozzle. It was like pulling teeth to get them to recommend even an 80% to people. Until we showed them that a good amount of fuel can be injected through an 80% in a short pw.

99.9% of these people can not/do not do their own tuning and are at the mercy of these tuners. Some of which still to this day call for up to 6ms of pw for injectors we build that can empty in 3.2ms. Until more people MASTER the ability to tune their own trucks I will continue to lead them in the direction of a product that has been proven to do exactly what they call and ask for.
A 30% nozzle has a very good place in the HEUI injector world. Same goes for 80%, we have done some amazing things with our 175/80's for the daily driver/tow rig market.

Have a good day all!
 

Charles

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Charles I'm not going to argue this point with you again, but someone needs to put some disclaimer in here.

What you have for a combo will not work for most people. I have been through this sooooo many times.

When we get calls about how a customer needs us to look at their injectors because they are having smoke and egt issues like crazy and their tuner tells them it's their injectors.

MOST people don't need a 200% for a tow truck or simple daily driver. Can they make them work? Absolutely they can. But I have worked with many top tuners for YEARS! Some are scared to put a customer in anything with more than a 30% nozzle. It was like pulling teeth to get them to recommend even an 80% to people. Until we showed them that a good amount of fuel can be injected through an 80% in a short pw.

99.9% of these people can not/do not do their own tuning and are at the mercy of these tuners. Some of which still to this day call for up to 6ms of pw for injectors we build that can empty in 3.2ms. Until more people MASTER the ability to tune their own trucks I will continue to lead them in the direction of a product that has been proven to do exactly what they call and ask for.
A 30% nozzle has a very good place in the HEUI injector world. Same goes for 80%, we have done some amazing things with our 175/80's for the daily driver/tow rig market.

Have a good day all!


It's real simple. If anybody is having a problem with a truck smoking simply scan the truck and see what IS the pulsewidth. If it's a 200% nozzle, they are at mid throttle, it's smoking and the pulsewidth is higher than 1.x then yatzy.... you just solved the all-illusive mystery, lol.

It's so far from rocket science a caveman could do it. I don't mean that to imply that you and other tuners are stupid, but that the answer is very, very easy, it just isn't being done.

Frankly I can't hear about it any more. It's like somebody choosing velcro because they just can't reliably count of everybody being able to tie their shoes.
 

cjfarm111

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Charles your still running a 38r with 250/200's? I'm just curious how you are getting the full potential out of those injectors with that turbo? Is the 200% nozzles helping keep egts down or is your tuning backed off to keep it alive?
 

Tim @ P.I.S.

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I can not agree more with that statement. And I am by no means arguing with what you have done with your setup. But like I said 99.9% of people reading this do not have the ability to duplicate your setup 100%.

And until you have tuners that think they mastered something 10years ago and nothing has changed since then I don't see the issue being resolved. I have not only handed over what I felt was extremely important info in the operation of heui injection but tried to beat it into some heads. So now I sit here keeping things to my self.

Now are there tuners that can tune for the scenarios you describe? I'm sure there are. But one simple example for the last several years as soon as the weather turns cool our phones will blow up with complaints of hazing at idle when they first start up. Guess what? The only thing that has changed is the temp. Your injectors did not suddenly change operation as some tuners will tell you.

Disclaimer: I personally am not calling out any individual tuner. I have worked with almost all of them over the years in one capacity or another. I have seen some very good things as well as completely horrible. I have sat on the phone and had some tell me point blank I don't know what I'm talking about over injector operation, I'm pretty sure our customers would beg to differ.
 

Charles

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Charles your still running a 38r with 250/200's? I'm just curious how you are getting the full potential out of those injectors with that turbo? Is the 200% nozzles helping keep egts down or is your tuning backed off to keep it alive?

Obviously I'm not maxing the injectors out, they are 300/200's and I have a stock trans in this truck with a PMR engine.

You can set the injectors for whatever power you want. Right now I've pushed about as far into a stock trans as I can. If I had a dyno available right now I would have already made about a dozen pulls.

To guess, it's somewhere between 350 and 450, although hard to say because I've never dyno'd this truck and I don't know how it "feels" at a given power.

I had a guy in one of those new maserati's getting fiesty a minute ago and trying to chop on the shifts I still blew the tires off in 2nd and held with him about even with his back bumper into 3rd gear. I lost a lot going into third because I couldn't get the trans to lock in.

It's not slow, but it's definitely not fast either, lol.
 

TyCorr

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Thats a good useable power range with a 200% nozzle. I figure my tow tune to be in there somewhere id say sub 400 but definitely stronger than a stock truck with some tuning.
 

cjfarm111

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So what exactly are you gaining or sacrificing with the 200% nozzle? Idle quality? Better low end? Top end? I have 80's now and I'm just curious in how all this works. I'm very happy with my current setup but is there any advantage going to a 200 nozzle over what I have?
 

Charles

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So what exactly are you gaining or sacrificing with the 200% nozzle? Idle quality? Better low end? Top end? I have 80's now and I'm just curious in how all this works. I'm very happy with my current setup but is there any advantage going to a 200 nozzle over what I have?

Compared to a smaller nozzle you will usually lose a bit of low power resolution, or quality. You lose ability to inject small amounts of fuel with high precision. It's like trying to control video volume in youtube when your master volume is set to max. You're right at the very edge of the volume slider on youtube to listen to a video at lowish volume.

The result to the truck is that it becomes much harder to control haze and idle stability as the nozzle grows, taking injection rate with it.

But....

As you start pushing your foot down on the pedal you quickly flip over to a request that is better served with the 200 and suddenly smoke and temperature start dropping with the larger nozzle because the fuel can be placed in the cylinder within a window that allows for more complete combustion.

What that means to the truck is that you can make more power for a given smoke and egt. When towing you will be dragging hell out of the trailer before you reach your personal egt limit, if you ever do! When you're hauling ass, it means you're hauling MORE ass, smoking less and running cooler while doing both.

But all of that depends on someone writing a program that doesn't drown the poor bastard in duration the engine does not WANT!

If we had started with larger nozzles..... like if the 7.3 had been offered from the factory as say a 400hp version..... the computer would never have ASKED for so much duration in the first place. It's only because we tried to stretch power out of a small nozzle that we ended up with so much pw in the first place. If we just get the injection window back where it should have been and swap the nozzle instead of pushing hard on a small nozzle with too much programming, the truck is much, much happier..... except at very low power demands, like idle.

As a for instance...... many people running A-codes have dual pumps and thousands and thousands of dollars of sh*t on their trucks and they make sub 500hp, that that's all they've got, the injectors are maxed.

In contrast my red truck with a single 15 degree OBS pump from a wrecked truck engine would blow the tires off to 4500rpm for days with 400/400 injectors. Over 500hp on a single OBS pump because the 400 could pop that fuel in the hole right now with short duration and make the most of that fuel, with a hybrid that doesn't play the F around game like an A-code.

There were always guys running single stock pumps and big hybrids making power, they just got ignored or written off.

I'll tell you right now, if you tune a truck like you've got some sense you'd be AMAZED at what you DON'T need in order to zip down the road. And tiny ass nozzles is on the list of sh*t you DON'T need on anything but a dedicated grocery getter like my wife's excursion that I want to idle like silk all the time and give me no bs ever.
 
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